My CC is not due the last day of every month

I've had many problems because I could not find actual behavior of YNAB, however now I am beginning to understand one flaw that is sort of the source of almost every misunderstanding. NO there is no magical change on my card when we transition from this month to next month.

I pay off my credit card every month. It's a no-brainer, except YNAB was always lying about what I owe on my credit card, because when the next month started I have still allocated the same total which I need to pay by the due date, but YNAB has no comprehention of when that money needs to be paid so it zeros the balance I will be paying. No-brainer becomes impossible to comprehend.

I need YNAB to understand that the month for a credit card is not from the 1st to the 31st but rather based on whatever date that card is due and will begin charging interest if I do not pay it by that day.

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  • YNAB doesn't tell you how much you are going to pay. It tells you how much of your cash you have reserved to make future payments on your credit card. Just like every other category in your budget, any money still reserved in the payment category at the end of the month at the end of the month rolls over to the next month, so it doesn't matter when you pay it (take a look at the CC payment category in September right now and it will show you the same amount that is there in August unless you moved money out of the category in your September buget)).

    If your category has less in it then you plan to pay, then you haven't reserved enough to make the payment.

    YNAB only explicitly reserves money to the payment category by transferring money from other categories in which you made budgeted purchases on the credit card.

    Any other balances on the card, including any balance on the card when you started using YNAB and purchases that took your categories overspent will not move money to the payment category and you must explicitly reserve funds to cover that on your own.

    It's possible you are riding the credit card float and never assigned money to cover your starting balance when you first started using YNAB.

    https://www.youneedabudget.com/are-you-riding-the-credit-card-float/

    P.S. - I don't necessarily agree with the advice given on how to get off the float

    Like 4
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule floating is about not paying it "this month". This is exactly why YNAB is lying, because I am paying it before the montly deadline to pay it, just that a month of credit card is based on the billing period and has nothing to do with a calendar month. Fix it and it will work in reality.

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Jeff You clearly do not understand how credit cards work in YNAB. The credit card payment category tells you how much at this very moment you can pay toward your credit card. Nothing more, nothing less.

      Whether you pay it this month or next month doesn't matter as long as you have the cash reserved in the category to make the payment when you plan to make the payment.

      I have a statement that closed 2 days ago. My payment category has enough in it to make the statement payment + money to cover the new charges that I added since it closed. In other words, it has enough in it to cover the entire balance. I could pay it now if I wanted, but I'm not going to. That money for the old plus new charges will still be in the category when i make the payment on the 22nd of next month for the statement balance. In the meantime, new purchases will add to the card balance and will also increase the available money in the payment category.

      Does your payment category not have enough money in it to cover the entire balance of your credit card?

      Like 3
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule "You clearly do not understand how credit cards work in YNA"

      I never said credit cards work in YNAB, but I understand now how you think they should work.

      Please tell me, is there a way to see a total of what the balance should be on the statement? You've been telling me that I need to make everything in YNAB match what I see in reality, so this is what I cannot find.

      I need a fix that will be true to life in other words show me the billing period of transactions that should show up on that credit card statement.

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      Jeff 

      Jeff said:
      Please tell me, is there a way to see a total of what the balance should be on the statement?

       That's what your statement is for. YNAB doesn't know what your statement balance is because it doesn't have access to statement data, only transaction data. You card balance is the sum of the original starting balance +/- all subsequent transactions in the YNAB account register.

      YNAB tells you 2 things.

      1. Your current working account balance in the credit card account (based on transactions), and

      2. the amount of your cash you have reserved for payments to the card in the payment category at the current point in time.

      The statement balance isn't the amount of money you owe on the card. The entire balance is. So if you consider yourself a Pay In Full credit card user, it's the card balance in its entirety that needs to be covered by money in the payment category. Whether you send all of it or just the statement balance is up to you.

      Like 5
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule so it truly is about terminology that I have been confused, not how to budget. I was right from the beginning that I just need to know exactly what formulas are being done and when. YNAB uses words for "normal" people, not for us with High Functioning Autism.

      I get all your points, and from the others helping. I could not remember why I was having a hard time because your meaning was what I already knew, but I forgot Available is not meaning available to allocate but available to spend and I may have already allocated. I did understand the new credit card behavior (back in the installed application days we did this on our own which was easier for me to know) but my point was what you agree with: It did not show me what I needed to see in order to make sure I'm paying the full balance on the montly credit card statement. My problem is memory issues unlike "normal" people. I remeber details you cannot comprehend, and it throws you off. I just need computers to accommodate for that. This is why I specialize in computer engineering.

      The part I called a lie was about forgetting things I knew because of moving targets but still there is no feature to do what I need (it would be extremely simple to make possible). I had seen the correct amount I would need in my business expense category, but by the time I get the statement on the 10th it was wrong. Turned out I had forgot the category would only show negative Available for the month (start over next month) but the credit card category still was showing full amount allocated an yet it was useless because of no way to only show between the dates that would be on the satement.

      I thought, no problem I will just create a report of the business expenses and select from Jul 10 to Aug 9... NOPE they think I should only be allowed to select entire months.

      Like
  • Jeff said:
    Fix it and it will work in reality.

     Fix what? 

    The method of payment doesn't essentially matter to the budget. 

    If you buy $30 in gas on August 26th on credit, that $30 is taken from your gas category. You still have the cash in your bank account, so YNAB now earmarks $30 to pay your CC. You can choose to pay it down immediately or anytime before the credit card says that $30 is due to them. When you pay it doesn't matter to YNAB - the money is ready for the payment.

    Did you assign money for your starting balance on the card when you began YNAB?

    For example, if you started in June, you likely had gas purchases already sitting on the card. Because they happened before YNAB, you would need to initially assign money to the CC Payment category when you paid them off. After that, you only assign money to the gas category and YNAB will automatically move it to the CC Payment category.

    Like 3
  • Jeff said:
    zeros the balance I will be paying

     The only way YNAB would zero the available balance in a category when the months rolls over would be if it is negative. 

    The only way for your CC Payment category to be negative is if you made a payment larger than the funds you had set aside in YNAB for that payment (whether automatically moved or directly assigned).

    The most likely way you got to that state was by not assigning money for your CC's starting balance, based on what you said. Another way is unfunded credit/overspending.

    At the beginning, you needed to assign $300 to gas for the upcoming spending as well as assign money to cover the last month's gas that you had delayed paying for by using the credit card.

    It feels like double-budgeting in the first month. If you can't swing it, then you have to make decisions about pacing yourself or reallocating (one-time) to get off that float.

    P.S. To fix it, you don't have to go back to the first month. Just assign (reallocate) in the current month to make your CC Payment category equal the absolute value of the negative working balance (current, not statement) balance of the card.

    Like
  • Jeff said:
    Please tell me, is there a way to see a total of what the balance should be on the statement?

     If you're trying to reconcile to a statement date, select and unclear the transactions after the statement closed. Reconcile, then re-clear the ones that aren't pending anymore. 

    I don't see the point of the extra work, but I know it's been asked a few times before. 

    Your working balance and category available determine whether you're on the float or PIF (paid in full), and the working balance is simply the sum of all transactions, cleared or not. I'd rather reconcile to *right now* rather than a statement because it provides a more verifiably accurate set of transactions that impact the working balance as well as the category available.

    Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Move Light Sound Life people are right that I haven't figured out how to use the numbers yet. Since you mention reconciling, at least I am doing that. I just can't always see later what that number was, when I am finally available to make full payments from the statement. Sometimes I uncheck a few so I can see what the balance should be at the time of the statement. Of course then I re-clear what is cleared so that number is nowhere.

      I thought of trying to use the report to select the card but it also fails to understand that I need a specific date range, not only on month boundaries.

      Like
    • Jeff Oh. No, YNAB doesn't tell you what the statement balance is. That comes from your CC company. Just like YNAB doesn't know what your electric bill is.

      This is what I do to account for that info:

      1. When reconciling (weekly, usually), look at my last statement balance.

      2.  Create a scheduled transaction to pay the card a day or two before it's due (I only did that once, and set it to repeat monthly). Include the correct amount that's due. 

      3. Put the month in the memo. If my card is due the 3rd, then I'll put September in the memo. 

      4. After September 3rd, the scheduled transaction will repopulate to Oct 3rd with an incorrect number. That's fine - as soon as you see the new statement, you'll update the amount and change the memo. 

      The memo is just there to give you confirmation that you have updated the necessary info. 

      Regarding actually paying the card, that is done through the CC company's website.

      Like
  • Jeff said:
    when I am finally available to make full payments from the statement.

     I think you're on the float. If you're waiting for future purchases to fill up your payment category so you can afford to pay the statement balance, you're on the float.

    If you have sufficient cash in other categories, a one-time reallocation will get you to PIF for real. 

    Otherwise, you'll assign money directly to the card payment category as you can until the category = the positive equivalent of the card working balance.

    Like 1
  • Jeff , nobody’s card is due at the end of the month. The fact of the matter is that YNAB doesn’t care when your card is due. That’s up to you to keep track of and to pay. All YNAB does is keeps track of your purchases made on the card and transfers funds from the category used to your CC’s payment category. If you are a paid in full CC user, your CC Payment balance should always match your CC balance but in the positive. If you currently have a CC balance of -$1000, then you should have $1000 reserved for Payment.

    When you make the statement balance payment, it’s just a transfer from your checking account to your CC account. I like to automate payments on my CCs. They’re all set up to automatically pay the statement balance on the due date. I also automate the payment in YNAB using repeating transactions set up for the date of payment. I update each month’s CC payment as soon as I receive my new electronic CC statement balance each month.

    Like 2
  • Move Light Sound Life said:
    The only way YNAB would zero the available balance in a category when the months rolls over would be if it is negative. 

     See, now that is the kind of exact behavior and formulas I've been asking for thank you.

    Yes, see my reply to nolesrule for why I was relying on a negative.

    Like 1
  • Superbone said:
    nobody’s card is due at the end of the month.

     Thank you I was being sarcastic and am glad you see my point

    Like
  • Move Light Sound Life said:
    If you're waiting for future purchases to fill up your payment category so you can afford to pay the statement balance, you're on the float

     No obviously I am not waiting til I can afford something. That would be a float. I am waiting to pay the full balance, before it is due, and never paying any interest. That is absolutely not a float, this is the entire thing I have been saying all along so I do not see why you are missing that.

    Like
  • Superbone said:
    your CC Payment balance should always match your CC balance but in the positive

    It will help you to take the effort to read the rest of what I said if you want to help.

    This is obviously what you are missing: It never matches my CC statement and should not because it has no clue when my statement date is. My point about that seems simple; I need a way to see the balance based on only the dates included in the statement. This is not possible in YNAB because even the reports do not allow dates but entire months which is why I say YNAB thinks credit cards only end on month boundaries.

    Like
  • Hi Jeff ! You're right - YNAB doesn't know your statement balance. Would you be open to making a one time adjustment to your Credit Card Payment category so that it matches what you owe on the card?

    From there the money will sit in your Credit Card Payment category until you make the payment (you can earn interest, etc), but you'll be ready to pay entirely in full, should the need arise. For our purposes in YNAB, that's how we know we're avoiding the credit card float - I know that's different from your definition!

    If you'd like YNAB to consider your statement balance, you can submit that idea and why it would be helpful to you as a Feature Request.

    I'm not sure if my experience would be helpful to you, but I also pay my statement balance (auto pay, so I don't forget). All the while, my Credit Card Payment category matches what I owe. I've found that this method requires the least interaction on my part.  

    Like 3
  • Jeff said:
    This is obviously what you are missing: It never matches my CC statement

    No one said anything about matching the STATEMENT balance. We are talking about matching the ACCOUNT  balance. If the account balance on the left of the screen (in web app) says -$300, then the credit card payment category available balance (the far right column) should say +$300. If it is less than $300 you are carrying credit card debt. If it is more than $300 you have too much set aside in your budget for credit card payments and you can reallocate. The actual amount that you actually pay the credit card company by the due date doesn’t have to be $300 (though it is always ideal to pay the statement balance in full. Paying the account balance in full is just giving the credit card company money before they need it). Just like if I budget $300 to groceries, it’s totally fine if I only spend $295. 

    Like 4
  • Jeff said:
    I am waiting to pay the full balance, before it is due, and never paying any interest. That is absolutely not a float, this is the entire thing I have been saying all along so I do not see why you are missing that.

     In YNAB, does your budget category for the CC Payment go negative or down to zero when you make a payment? You said you're making payments such that you're not floating anything. However, it seems that you're not representing that in YNAB. In order to have the numbers in YNAB show that you have Paid In Full status,

     

    Superbone said:
    your CC Payment balance should always match your CC balance but in the positive.

     That's why Superbone said it - and he's not talking about statement balance.

    Jeff said:
    Turned out I had forgot the category would only show negative Available for the month (start over next month) but the credit card category still was showing full amount allocated an yet it was useless because of no way to only show between the dates that would be on the satement.

     So, here, you've said that there was unfunded spending that made your budget category for the CC payment fall short.

    Move Light Sound Life said:
    The most likely way you got to that state was by not assigning money for your CC's starting balance, based on what you said. Another way is unfunded credit/overspending.

     The way to fix unfunded spending from a prior month that takes you out of PIF status is to assign money directly to the CC payment category. 

    Your indication that this is needed is that the *working* balance of the card is not the negative equivalent to what is available to pay the card in the CC category on the budget screen.

    Read what Jenmas said. She's got it.

    Regarding CC mechanics and formulas, this video may help:

    https://youtu.be/TtURRDUT6iw

    Meaty info starts at 4:30. 

    Like
  • Jeff said:
    It will help you to take the effort to read the rest of what I said if you want to help.

    I don't appreciate your comment. I read every word and I understood every word. I can't help you with the way your brain works but I too am a computer engineer and I am very detail oriented. I am only trying to help you. You need to put some effort into understanding what we're saying.

    Jeff said:
    This is obviously what you are missing: It never matches my CC statement and should not because it has no clue when my statement date is. My point about that seems simple; I need a way to see the balance based on only the dates included in the statement. This is not possible in YNAB because even the reports do not allow dates but entire months which is why I say YNAB thinks credit cards only end on month boundaries.

    Here is what you are missing. No, you don't need a way to see the balance based on your statement dates. YNAB is not your source for your CC statement balance and is not intended to be. Your CC statement is this source. You can document this in YNAB each month with a repeated transaction that you update each time you get your new monthly statement balance. YNAB's only job is to keep track of what you paid for on the card and how much you owe in total. It is your job to pay the correct amount each month.

    Like 4
  • Jeff said:
    I need a way to see the balance based on only the dates included in the statement. This is not possible in YNAB

     If you know the dates included in the statement, and your credit card account is reconciled in YNAB such that there are no missing transactions, go to the credit card account page/register and filter by date (under view, on the web).  On the web, selecting all of those transactions will give you the sum in the upper right hand corner of the screen, next to the amount available for payment. 

    There's probably a way to do this on the mobile app too, but I don't use that often enough to give instructions.

    Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Fuzzball Meows if you tried it did you notice my point? It only allowes to select an entire months and not dates. It would only work if each statement period ends on the last day of the month and starts on the 1st

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Fuzzball Meows hey wait a minute... I wondered if you meant "filter" or meant to say "sort", and then realized that is my answer! All I needed to do is sort by cleared (so older entries are sure to be cleared), and enable show running balance. That way I can always look back to the billing date and see the right value in the running balance. Thank you for everyone trying to help.

      Like
    • Jeff A word of caution: 

      What will you do if a transaction in YNAB fell on a different date than is recorded by your CC bank? 

      If it crosses a statement boundary, you could inadvertently pay the wrong amount to your card, causing you to be charged interest. 

      Determining the statement balance will always be correct by looking at the CC bank. 

      It will likely be mostly correct if you rely on YNAB's records, but I can't recommend using the secondary source (YNAB) because there are cases where the assumed statement balance will not be correct. 

      Your call, but I hope you see the risk.

      Like 2
  • Superbone said:
    I read every word and I understood every word.

    Then you understand that what I was asking is not for YNAB to tell me when my credit card is due. I did not appreciate your comment and wondered if you accept that it goes both ways. You were not saying the same thing as the others. What you said is correct but I already agree with it in general. Beginning this thread I still thought it needs to know the credit card billing period but I'm past that. And I've replied multiple times about the simple solution to accomodate (below also).

    I figured out my two problems before, from the other replies and experimenting, so the thing left is if you can get the total of all transactions in a category between specific dates. I'm often told this doesn't do that but is exactly my point; This is the only reasonable place to do it. YNAB already has the needed data and avoids redundancy. Reports won't do it but should. I use Gnucash, for the business side (for A/R, A/P, Invoicing), so simple and powerful, but to integrate budget features of YNAB would be a lot of coding.

    I could trust this better if there was a way to electronically get transactions from the cc but it's managed through paypal login and going to other links. It is just not a standard banking login so it seems no support. I have to enter everything myself and keep getting mistakes, but that was not all that was wrong and it feels impossible unless I wrote it myself or had technical information (was hoping for just the technical on both threads but neurotypicals have hard time communicating it without abstraction requiring typical assumptions).

    If any number is off then everything is wrong but I had no picture of what all happened to get there, so yes I do need ability to get the same totals from my statement in YNAB so I would know the impossible isn't happening again. I do reconcile the card like other accounts (things were worse before I learned how important that was) but the numbers were still not working and I didn't know what to do because how can you fix numbers that were all reconciled correctly.. I just needed ppl to stop telling me I'm doing it wrong and don't understand, and just tell me where it gets every number to add up and then I can work out my system to use it. As an engineer you know the rule: If I want something done right I have to do it myself.

    Like
    • Jeff Are you able to use File-Based Importing to import your transactions? If you do that, and then filter by date, you might be able to use the Selected Total feature to get the number you're looking for.

      Edit to add: you can use multiple criteria in the search bar: "After: 06/17/2021, Before: 07/16/2021"

      Like
    • Jeff In your register, with the transactions sorted by date, click the checkbox of the first transaction on the statement. Press shift and click the checkbox of the last transaction on the statement. 

      This is as close as you're going to get to YNAB showing you a statement balance, and it is not guaranteed to be correct, as the actual cleared date of a transaction in YNAB can vary from your bank's perspective, due to several factors.

      Did you try the scheduled transaction workflow that Superbone and I suggested? That is really the most reliable and efficient way, and you would presumably have no extra navigation/clicks because you're already at the bank's website for the reconciliation process.

      Like
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Jeff Best of luck to you. I'm pulling for you. Keep at it until you get it.

      Like 3
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Marisa well I had trouble in the past using file import but I should try for a while, it might be better than I thought. The "After:07/17/2021" would be great and sounds like what I do in GMail. Can it asume what year if I don't specify? For example assume this year, or the next/previous year depending on what would make sense based on current date

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Marisa LOL I searched "Before: 08/10/2021" but I guess it needs some work because that should show only transactions before Aug 10. Not including the 10th

      Like
  • Jeff said:
    (was hoping for just the technical on both threads but neurotypicals have hard time communicating it without abstraction requiring typical assumptions)

     Both typical and atypical brains require communication via language on this forum, and words require phenomenology to do their job. I would posit that even someone with a similar neurological set up as yours may have different experiences to pull from that inform the abstract assumptions of vocabulary. 

    It sounds like you want a textbook on how YNAB works, complete with glossary and sequential sections that detail how things work. 

    I'd prefer that, too. I dislike going through the help docs because they aren't set up like that. Alas, the forum is even less organized. Plus, it's structured to foster conversations between people who may or may not be using words with the same understanding. It's rather informal. No need to get upset.

    Like
    • I'm decently confident that I'm saying the same thing as Superbone, and based on what you've said (this is easily a second or third derivative type of abstraction here, which means it could be pointing to several sets of concrete things in YNAB that are incorrect),

      Jeff said:
      If any number is off then everything is wrong but I had no picture of what all happened to get there, so yes I do need ability to get the same totals from my statement in YNAB so I would know the impossible isn't happening again.

       it seems that you still may have misconceptions about a few aspects of credit cards, month turn, and reconciling. 

       

      Feel free to ask more specific questions so that you will get more specific answers.

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Move Light Sound Life only thing I need to understand is to earn interest instead of pay it. This is why I don't follow only the monthly thing you're talking about (the money could not be in my savings as long)

      But hey, now all three problems are solved and I didn't have to denounce my methods. thanks.

      Like
    • Jeff The way the month turns over on YNAB's budget pages has nothing to do with how long you can keep earning interest on the money allocated to your credit card payment category. 

      However, if you think everything is resolved, good. You know where to come for more info.

      Like 3
  • Jeff said:
    sort by cleared (so older entries are sure to be cleared), and enable show running balance.

     Actually, you'll want to sort by the balance column. 

    Any other sorts can result in seemingly inaccurate numbers in the running balance column.

    Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Move Light Sound Life it works. I mentioned the purpose of sorting by cleared and it naturally has to do secondary sort by date, which it does. This gives the balance I need for that purpose.

      You can't really argue with "it works." I'm not saying whatever you need would work with my method, I only know what I need and what happens here. This is why if you say I don't understand credit cards then your claim is meaninless because my system simply works. I don't get charged interest and my money does stay more days in my savings before I have to make the payment. Obviously you have to know all the details of your agreement with your credit card company.

      Like
    • Jeff I'm glad your way is working for what you need. 

      For anyone else reading this, there is, in fact, a difference between sorting by the balance column in YNAB and sorting by the cleared column. 

      The only time the balance column will display correctly in a reliable way is if you sort by the balance column. 

      Sorting by any other column may or may not result in the balance column displaying correct calculations. This is akin to the fact that 2+2=4 and 2x2=4. Just because those numbers seem to act the same in those examples doesn't mean that addition and multiplication will act the same in other situations.

      I would hate for anyone to rely on something that is not reliable.

      Like 4
      • WordTenor
      • Can we agree that goals are dumb and immature? Sure.
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Move Light Sound Life who ever said sorting by cleared would be the same as sorting by the balance? I assumed they are different because they literally cannot mean the same thing, but then again I recently found out when I search "Before:8/10/2021" it does not follow what I told it, instead it does "equal to or before"

      So here are my questions that brings: (1) what is the default sort order, same as if you select sort by date? I wouldn't know because I changed them before knowing how it shows current sort order. (2) Does the software first decide the sorting order and then calculate the running balance or first order by date and then calculate the sort order and if so does it keep that running balance on that line after it changes sort order? Either way would that mess up the order where a payment was made because now the balance didn't just continue in the same direction?

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Jeff The running balance is calculated based on the transaction order in YNAB and doesn't change regarless of transaction sorting. The transaction is order is by date, and within each date largest inflow to largest outflow.

      Like 3
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule technically, transaction order means the order in which they were entered, not date order. In some databases it is not defined so could produce chaotic results for undocumented reasons. So eventually you agree that it sorts by date first to determine balance on that entry, as I thought.

      That means there's no point in sorting by balance instead of by cleared, yet it also means neither can help me find the balance I need which simply needs to not count the transaction that would have been in the previous statement period but wasn't because it did not clear yet, right?

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Jeff this is an account register so the natural order is by date. Just like financial institutions. 

       

      Running balance is tied to the natural sort order of the transactions. It has no meaning with any other order. 

      Like 2
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule Lol I was only explaining technical point of view, I was not disagreeing so you don't need to say the same thing again

      Like
    • Jeff That's why we keep thinking you don't understand these various concepts. You asked questions:

      Jeff said:
      (1) what is the default sort order

       

      Jeff said:
      (2) Does the software first decide the sorting order and then calculate the running balance or first order by date and then calculate the sort order and if so does it keep that running balance on that line after it changes sort order?

       Nolesrule answered them:

       

      nolesrule said:
      Jeff The running balance is calculated based on the transaction order in YNAB and doesn't change regarless of transaction sorting. The transaction is order is by date, and within each date largest inflow to largest outflow.

        You said a few things that are objectively, factually incorrect, and in opposition to the answers Nolesrule just gave.

      Jeff said:
      transaction order means the order in which they were entered
      Jeff said:
      there's no point in sorting by balance instead of by cleared

       Nolesrule corrected the (seeming) misunderstandings:

      nolesrule said:
      this is an account register so the natural order is by date. Just like financial institutions. 

      Running balance is tied to the natural sort order of the transactions. It has no meaning with any other order. 

       You responded that you were both saying the same things. 

      Jeff said:
      I was not disagreeing so you don't need to say the same thing again

      Just in case you missed it, you weren't saying the same things.

       I could point out similar contradictions in our exchanges, but I hope you get the point.

      I am obviously not fruitfully aiding your situations within YNAB, so I'll bow out.

      Good luck as you get yourself squared away! YNAB can be really useful, and I'm sure you'll get it as you explore its details.

      Like
  • Jeff said:
    This is why if you say I don't understand credit cards then your claim is meaninless because my system simply works.

     We've all been talking about representing your credit card usage *in YNAB.*

    If you think you're Paid In Full on your card in real life, but your YNAB CC Payment category does not equal the absolute value (positive equivalent) of your (negative) *working* balance, then you are not representing your CC usage correctly in YNAB. 

    If those numbers match, great, we won't see you again for this.

    If your CC Payment category ever turns red or is less than your working balance, then you're telling YNAB that you're on the float. 

    Ultimately, you have to decide how you represent things in YNAB. As for me, I prefer to choose reality.

    Like 4
  • Move Light Sound Life said:
    YNAB CC Payment category does not equal the absolute value (positive equivalent) of your (negative) *working* balance

    You sure are misrepresenting what I think. Maybe you're confused because I've brought up so many confusions I've had, but I also posted after I realized each misunderstanding. Obviously there's no need to go back to my previous posts if I've already worked out what those really meant.

    Like
  • Move Light Sound Life said:
    The only time the balance column will display correctly in a reliable way is if you sort by the balance column

     Update: Since your claim makes no sense (how can you sensibly sort by balance when there are both card purchases and payments) I decided to click on Balance when I got home, and see how it looks.

    Somehow I am not surprised: It is NOT sorting by balance.

    So for anyone else: Just sort by date if you want to make sense of the running balance. I was only looking for the balance on a line on the last day of the period that matches the statement ending balance and it always worked because I make so few transactions. I by chance I had a transaction that didn't clear until after the pay period it was purchased in, no harm because if I don't get a match I simply find out what really happened and it will be solved.

    This means people are correct that YNAB doesn't care to allow it even thought it has all the information. That's what I said in the first place but now that I know more exactly what it does calculate in each field, I will accept that. No harm in trying to ask for less manual calculations necessary and I understand how it is when the code just isn't written for making that simple to add.

    Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Jeff You don't need the less manual calculation. You should be getting the data you need from the financial institution without any need for calculation as that is the primary source of the data you are requesting. You are wanting to extrapolate information from a secondary data source and that could result in errors.

      Furthermore it's possible that the cutoff date for the statement could vary and you won't know that from looking in YNAB, so again, you really need to go to the source.

      I have a card that closes on the 25th, but every once in awhile it closes up to 3 days later... and I still haven't figured out the pattern. If I blindly went by what was cleared on the 25th then it would be very possible I was using the wrong number.

      So as I've said a few other times (and others have stated as well), you need to use the information provided to you by your financial institution if you want to guarantee accuracy as it is the primary data source.

      Like 2
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule do I need to explain again? No. I just need to stop trying to keep educating everyone about what I meant.

      Like
  • Move Light Sound Life said:
    we keep thinking you don't understand these various concepts

     You re not "we". You are different than the others, and I already agreed with the others aside from pointing out that the order they are stored in a database, transaction order, is not correct terminology to mean date order. This is a technical terminology and I don't expect you to understand. I asked a specific question which was not answered by YNAB concepts. The concepts are generally fine.

    I see your ego is suffering, I will leave you alone.

    Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Jeff

      Jeff said:
      that the order they are stored in a database, transaction order, is not correct terminology to mean date order.

       In YNAB and other financial register programs, transaction order is synonymous with date order. You are trying to be technical in the land of financial data. You are not the only one who works in technology and understands databases, but you are trying to apply a technical frame of reference to something that is not a technical terminology.

      Like 1
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule reference? Where do other financial people use that term

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Jeff you are trying to apply a technical definition to the subject of finance and accounting.

      You want a technical-related answer? Transaction order is the order in which the individual transaction is applied to have an effect on the thing in which it is affecting.

      In accounting and finance, that order is not data entry order nor is it asynchronous, but is the natural date sort order, with a rule for intraday sorting as well.

      Like
    • Jeff I recognize that you said you have autism, and therefore may not realize this, or may not remember it.

      You cannot apply specialized terminology from one field to the terminology in another field. So your use of transaction order from the work you do with databases cannot be applied to the personal finance (or finance in general?) use of transaction order, which is by date and then sub-sorted by amount within date.

      Different fields use the same words to mean different things. Usually similar things, which is why they use the shared word, but the connotation is different. (Sometimes, in very rare cases, even the denotation of the word is different.)

      The best example I can come up with is of a term that is contentiously used at my company, and has other meanings that I'm aware of.  I'm sure you're familiar with surveys - the list of questions that companies bug you with after you use their service so they can get feedback on how they're doing. Did you know that accreditation organizations also survey companies they're auditing, but not by asking a list of questions - by going through a subset of their operations and looking for problems/irregularities.  And there are geological surveys, which have to do with getting measurements to map areas (I"m not as sure on the details of this one, geology not being my field.)

      All three are looking at a smaller set of information to extrapolate information about the larger set. But we can run into problems when making assumptions about which definition of survey is being used when talking to a team in a different field.

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule perhaps you don't know what "reference" means. I'm just asking what other source claims that "transaction order is synonymous with date order"

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Fuzzball Meows so you also have never looked up the financial term "transaction order", but I did

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule for example here is a reference: https://www.suntrust.com/facts-about-banking/account-balances/transaction-order

      So it's not that kind of order. The order you issue that creates a transaction is called a "transaction order" int the financial industry.

      Did you forget I have Internet too; I'm what I call "master of all trades, jack of none" because they are all simple so if you need to hire me for any one trade I will quickly master it. But I never become the jack of any trade because someone else can usually do the simple thing quicker if they also have mastered it. But if nobody can solve it then I gain the advantage. Rip on me if you desire, but you're being foolish.

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Fuzzball Meows what a waste of words, since it does not change the fact

      Like
    • Jeff What I read matches the definitions that other people here are using, and I've decided it's not worth arguing with you because you're right and everyone else is wrong no matter what they say. So yes, getting involved in trying to explain things to you was a waste of words. Have a great day.

      Like 3
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Jeff Pretty sure what's at that link is what I described, though in slightly more detail. It's the order which transactions are applied to an account.

      Like
  • Jeff said:
    do I need to explain again?

     No, you don't need to explain again. What you need to do is realize you are trying to fit the square peg in the round hole and it doesn't work. What you need to do is use the primary source to ensure you have the information you need, and you also need to make sure you reconcile regularly to ensure your accounts in YNAB are accurate, which also requires referencing the primary source.

    You keep acting like you have this superior knowledge of things, but I've been using personal finance software since the first version of Microsoft Money and I work in tech with databases and programming. A lot of the others you are talking down to have the same experience. While there is some crossover in terminology between technical and finance, the definitions aren't the same. A financial account transaction register, while it can be served up from a database, is not a database.

    We know what we are talking about from experience.

    Like 3
  • nolesrule said:
    transaction order is synonymous with date order

    Not true in financial terminology. This has been my only point about that. When someone says "transaction order", and they do not mean the official term which means an order to create a transaction, they are just saying "the order of the transactions" and is not a synonym for "date order" because that is a specific order.

    I was asking what is the specific order so the answer is ordered by date, and my point is if you said it is in "transaction order" that means nothing. It does mean something in the technical term and YNAB is DEFINATELY written by technical programmers. I explained it is not a thing in the financial field. This is why I asked you for a reference because if you showed me that there was any document not written by you or your foolish followers that says "transaction order" means "date order" then you could have taught me something.

    Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Jeff You are viewing everything through an IT lens and it is coloring how you view YNAB and other financial programs from and end-user point of view.  Context is everything.

      "Transaction order" in a financial account context is simply the order in which transactions are applied within the account. And it has nothing to do with the order of data entry/update (CRUD).

      I am not going to argue semantics with you.  Have a nice day!

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule I'm still suprised you think you are such a dictator that you do not need to have any reference showing anybody in the field agrees with your nonsensical claim. Reference!

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • Stealing From the Future fix is an improvement but is incomplete....
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Jeff I don't appreciate the insult. I don't need a degree to have expertise. I've been in IT and software development for 25 years without a degree in the field. I've been a developer, dba, tech lead and application architect. I understand the lingo. My wife has worked in finance for over 20 years and understands financial lingo. We have discussion about terminology differences all the time between the 2 fields.

      What's your experience?

      Please stop tagging me if you are only going to argue semantics. Have a nice day.

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule I am sorry you feel offended, I wonder what words you refer to? I know how it feels since you have been attempting to offend me all along the way. Sure if I said I was offended then nobody would threaten to ban you from the forum. You are only allowed to offend me.

      If you mean saying you "dictate," that is not insulting, not political reference, and simply speaking of what you did. Here is the reference : https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dictate

      Notice I did not throw a degree at you to prove what "dictate" means because "reference" does not mean what you think it means. I am still only asking for a reference to some documentation that claims "transaction order" is synonomous with "date order" because, as always, I am saying only date order would mean specifically to sort by date.

      I am sorry you misunderstand me.

      Like
      • Jeff
      • imajeff
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule funny you brought up your wife too because I wasn't going to mention that I asked my wife because she does accounting in banks to verify and spot fraud and stuff, so I asked her if she heard the term "transaction order" and she said, "no but I know there is a transaction date." I thought that was fun to see what she thinks but of course nobody there is going to claim that saying "transaction order" is the same as saying "date order"

      Like
  • Fuzzball Meows said:
    decided it's not worth arguing

     it was never worth arguing against the obvious

    Like
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