Question: Delete Category: New Update

"In today’s release we’re introducing a change to category deletion. Previously, all categories were deletable under all circumstances, but deleting a category with budgeting history could cause unexpected or surprising results. We now prevent such category deletions. Categories can always be hidden, and for those who want to channel their inner Strong Bad, categories can still be deleted once all budgeted dollars and transactions have been moved elsewhere."

Channeling my inner Strong Bad. I want to ensure Wish Farm usecase is preserved. As long as NO transactions are associated to a category, they can safely be deleted right? Even if money was moved into/out-of this category? Is that correct? The phrasing "budgeting history" is concerning me.

We have many categories we use for placeholders (Wish Farm). We tag them with 🚫 icon so we know during transaction entry not to associate the transaction with this category. Choose another and transfer the money from X into Y. Then when we are done with that temp category, we delete it. Will that still work?

80replies Oldest first
  • Oldest first
  • Newest first
  • Active threads
  • Popular
  • Hey folks! We really appreciate the feedback you've sent over about the deleting categories update. The added friction (and time) to certain workflows wasn't ideal. We hear you!

    With that, we're rolling back the change to the web app in the coming week. The team will explore a better solution for category deletions moving forward, minus the busywork.

    The update won't be added to mobile, so for category deletions between now and then—you can delete a category on your mobile device. Thanks for your feedback and suggestions here, and elsewhere!

    Like 9
    • To close the loop, the change was reversed in yesterday's release!

      Like 1
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 11 days ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Nicole Thank you for listening!

      Like 2
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 11 days ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Nicole thank you. Thank you. Thank you! Oh goodness, thank you!

      Like 2
    • RIP_MSMoney Superbone Thank You (and everyone else who's chimed in on this thread)! Having your commentary and feedback is invaluable and being able to take that to our Development Team was priceless. We truly appreciate your willingness to speak up here. I know it doesn't always feel like we're listening, but we hear you. 

      Like 5
  • Hey RIP_MSMoney !

    With today's release, a category can not be deleted unless all previous transactions are recategorized and all Budgeted amounts (in all previous months) are moved. Instead of deleting the category, you can rename it for your next Wish List item or hide it until you're ready to repurpose that category in the future. 

    If you have any questions about that, please don't hesitate to ask! I'd love to hear your feedback on this!

    Like
      • Rakuna
      • rakuna
      • 2 wk ago
      • Reported - view

      Faness So you can't just reallocate the available money to another category in the current month? You have to actually go back to reallocate that money in each month you have budgeted that to said category?

      Like
    • Rakuna That is correct. If there are funds Available or Budgeted in a past month, the delete option will be unavailable.

      Like
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 2 wk ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      Faness This change does NOT seem good. This seems to fly in the face of Wish Farm. I fully understand Account Transactions that are tagged with categories but if just for budgeting/saving, I want the ability to delete those categories. I dont want to repurpose them or hide them. :(

      This seems horrible :(

      Like 5
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 2 wk ago
      • 6
      • Reported - view

      I mean, this means that even if I create a category just to hold some funds (avoid rob peter to pay paul or losing funds), then I cant delete it until I go back through to the beginning and move everything around. This feels very counter productive. Again, I understand the whole "You have transactions tagged to this category, you cant delete this category until this is taken care of" but for categories that are JUST budgeted categories with NO transactions tagged to them, why cant I delete them?

      Please undo this change. I have been deleting temp categories since Starting YNAB with no problems. What was the problem? Why was this changed? What did this solve? Did this pass Alpha Testing? This feels like something major was overlooked.

      Like 6
    • RIP_MSMoney I would like to know what this solved, too.

      Like 2
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 11 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Faness Okay so my first "Come on! GRRR" moment is unfortunately here... :(

      I finally saved enough in my WishFarm category for my new toolset. It went on sale and I had the funds to buy. I now no longer want this category.. What must I do? I need to manually go from Month N to Month 0 and remove all budgeted amounts to the purchased category? At that point will the Delete become available again? (Thats Question1)

      Question2 is when will this be fixed? Seriously, this is so uncool. 

      Like
    • RIP_MSMoney Soon! Update below. Do you use the mobile app? You can delete there, tap & pull down to force a sync, and then refresh your budget on web to see the change.

      Like
    • WordTenor
    • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
    • WordTenor
    • 2 wk ago
    • 6
    • Reported - view

    Oh man. With the number of people who use Wish Farm this is gonna be fun. 

    Like 6
  • Just tested how this works in my sandbox budget and apparently the option of re-categorizing transactions en masse to another category is now completely gone. I would have appreciated if this option would have been expanded to the budgeted money too instead. 

    Like 3
    • Rakuna This is my last comment tonight, but "budgeting history" - having numbers in the budgeted and available column - doesn't create unexpected behavior when categories are deleted.

      Let me repeat: the stated reason for this change, 

      RIP_MSMoney said:
      deleting a category with budgeting history could cause unexpected or surprising results

       is false. 

      Unless the developers are changing something big about how TBB is calculated (why?), and are choosing not to have a global TBB (again, why??) and the unexpected behavior is happening there. Otherwise, this means they don't understand their own global TBB logic. 

      However, having "transaction history" associated with a category can cause unexpected issues with a deleted category, ONLY because the previous wizard asked for a new category for transactions but did not ask for a new category for the budgeted dollars of those transactions. So, yes, that wasn't logical and unexpected things happened in the budget. 

      Now, you can still go to the All Accounts view, search for a category, select them all, and recategorize en masse.

      It's just that that takes you out of the budget screen and the workflow of cleaning up the budget screen, so I would consider that less desirable than a wizard with budgetary follow-through. 

      Like
  • I don't have any time to say anything except that I think this was a bad move, and that I wish I had cleaned up my budget before the change...

    That was on the to do list in a couple months. 😕

    Like 3
    • Move Light Sound Life For now, deleting a category (without moving funds and recategorizing transactions) is still a possibility on the mobile app, but that will most likely be removed in the future, as well.

      I know you don't need a reminder, but want to point out there's no undo option on mobile for others who may try to clean up their budgets this way.

      Like
    • Faness I never do anything except enter transactions on mobile. I can't see what I'm doing, and I can't see the effect of my button pushes, plus the undo incapability. Much safer to use the web app. 

      Like 1
  • Wow. Exactly the opposite direction of all the feature requests I've seen come through here on this topic.

    Like 5
  • Meh. I'm good with it. It solves the whole "I deleted a category and now my whole budget is messed up" problem.

    Like 1
    • nolesrule But budgeted amounts in previous months didn't mess up the budget... It's a global TBB.

      This just makes more busy work cleaning up past months. I guess YNAB isn't trying to be so forward looking?

      Like
    • nolesrule Finishing the implementation they started would have also solved that problem: reallocate funds to the same category specified in the delete/merge when transactions are present. All without the busywork they just introduced.

      Like 6
  • I just wanted to say to anyone reading this, there's some really great discussion on this topic here...

    https://support.youneedabudget.com/t/80179k/delete-and-combine-categories-creates-big-problems

    And yes, the new update seems to go against the solutions presented while making busywork for most (all?) use-cases... It does make me wonder if the developers A) have ever tried to do this with their own budgets... They DO use YNAB, right? And B) read that thread. No, I can see how they read it, but how about digested it? Thought through implications?

    Right now, this seems to be the case of, "Don't put in a feature request, because you'll get the opposite of what you asked for/they'll know not to work on that idea..."

    Faness , I know this is not your call and you now have to handle some of the displeasure, but please, just pass it on to the people who need to hear it! Nothing personal intended!

    The hidden categories are such a mess to deal with. Why would I want to hide superfluous ones, just because I didn't want to comb through old months?  Why bring another problem into this one?

    Like 7
    • Move Light Sound Life I truly appreciate your consideration and feedback here. I know the displeasure comes from wanting better for (and from) YNAB and I feel the same way. I'm going to send this thread to our Development Team for review, so thank you for sharing both your honest opinion and more ideas on this feature.

      Like 1
  • Like 8
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 2 wk ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      MTE. I’m starting to love it when they do stuff like this. 

      Like 1
  • It appears YNAB fixed something that wasn't broken.   I use subcategories as temporary placeholders with no transaction history that I delete when finished.  No issues once I figured it out.  Please reconsider this "fix",  you're taking away choices from many have no problems.

    Like 5
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 2 wk ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      MsCoyote i fully agree. This "fix" needs to go :(

      Like 1
  • Is this being looked into? Is this change going to be rolled back/modified to not affect moves as opposed to transactions? Whats the update?

    Like
    • RIP_MSMoney At this time, there are no plans to roll back this change. Our Development Team is keeping an eye on the feedback received, but this change is meant to help a large majority of YNABers from accidentally using the category delete option to confuse themselves and mess up their budget.

      Like
    • Faness I get taking away the delete when there are transactions associated with a category.  That messed things up.  I wished YNAB had fixed the problem, but I can at least understand this as a stop-gap measure.

      However, if there was budgeted activity in a category, there was no issue!  It didn't mess anything up! 

      Please ask them to reconsider about the budgeted activity!

      Like 5
    • Faness

      Scenario #1 (previous workflow):
      Say you have a category called "New Dishwasher" that you're saving for separately from your "Home Maintenance" category because it has died and you're washing all dishes by hand right now.  It's a priority, and you don't want to accidentally use that money for air filters.

      For 6 months, you put money into that category.  Now you finally have enough to buy the dishwasher, so you categorize the purchase to "Home Maintenance" and move the "New Dishwasher" money over to "Home Maintenance" to support the purchase.

      From now on, hopefully your normal "Home Maintenance" contribution will cover things like this, so you want to delete the now empty "New Dishwasher" category. 

      Watch this:
      Deleting "New Dishwasher" in November releases all the budgeted funds in each month, May-Oct to TBB, and also deletes the negative "ND" budget amount in Nov. 

      But wait!  You didn't see anything? 
      That's because YNAB is so smart, it can do different math operations simultaneously.  Wow, YNAB!

       

      The new way requires A LOT more knowledge of the implications of a Global TBB from the user.

      Scenario #1 (current required workflow):

      Same situation as above.

      Watch this:

      1. Go back to May and move budgeted amount to TBB.  Be very confused as to where that money has gone, as TBB remains 0.
      2. Repeat for June - Oct, trusting the fact that you're not losing money to YNAB's interface, as TBB still remains 0.
      3. Click to Nov.  Get past the unsettled feeling that you just dealt with because you can see that somehow, Nov. is the same as before.  Or not, because you didn't know to check Nov. to have something to compare to after the rigmarole.

      Or perhaps you don't get to steps 3 and 4 because you thought you were doing something wrong in steps 1 and 2, so you aborted mission.

      I'm not going to come to a conclusion for you.  If the developers don't realize they have just disrespected customer service/customers by increasing the workload and confusion for no benefit, I don't have anything to say right now.

      Like 2
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 2 wk ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      Faness Stealing from the future, dealing with cash back on a credit card, over paying your credit card, and doing an account transfer from a credit card all involve budget manipulations and understandings that are much more complicated than the results of deleting a category that has previous budgeting. 

      If none of those things are problems, then this isn’t a problem either.

      Like 5
    • Faness 

      Scenario #2 (previous workflow):
      Say you stuffed your stimulus check in a holding category because you didn't want to blow it.

      A few months later, you've figured out how that money will best suit your priorities, so you move it.

      Watch this:
      Deleting the holding category in November releases all the budgeted funds from April's budget line and also deletes the negative budget amount in Nov's holding category. 

      But wait!  You didn't see anything? 
      That's because YNAB is so smart, it can do different math operations simultaneously.  Wow, YNAB!

      Why is that?  Why didn't you see anything?

      Let's take the operations separately. 

      1. Deleting the negative budgeted amount in November takes the TBB negative by the same amount in November, because everything still has to add up.
      2. Subsequently deleting positive budgeted amounts in the past, where you would expect to see the money to go TBB, really means that that money is getting swallowed up by the future, negative TBB.  This isn't a problem, as it's basically just a detour to get to the category of choice.

      What if you did it in the opposite order?

      1. Deleting the positive budgeted amounts in the past puts that money in TBB.  It may or may not stay there, depending on how much of your budget has been spent between that past and the future, and also depending on inflows within that past-present time.  Alternatively, it may or may not create other overspending issues with seemingly unrelated numbers in the present.
      2. However, if you keep your eye on the ball and fix everything that you were intending to fix related to ONLY this category (meaning you have to know what you are doing without guidance from the interface), everything will magically work out in the end.  It's hard to ignore the numbers getting worse, though...
      3. Go ahead, make a fake budget and play with the numbers (budgeted and transaction) over a stretch of time in the past.  You generally want to start a year ago and manipulate things at two-month intervals, then click through the months at each step so you can see the effects of your actions.
      4. Have fun figuring out invisible math!

       

      Anyways, just in case the previous post was unclear...

      The new way requires A LOT more knowledge of the implications of a Global TBB from the user.

      Scenario #2 (current required workflow):
      Same situation as above.

      Watch this:

      1. Go back to April and move budgeted amount to TBB.  Be very confused as to where that money has gone, as TBB remains 0.
      2. Click to Nov.  Get past the unsettled feeling that you just dealt with because you can see that somehow, Nov. is the same as before.  Or not, because you didn't know to check Nov. to have something to compare to after the rigmarole.
      3. Note: It's wayyyy more fun if you go present --> past.  Easiest way to fix is by starting in the furthest past --> present.  I have a good guess as to which order inexperienced YNABers will choose, though. XD

      Or perhaps you don't get to step 2 because you thought you were doing something wrong in steps 1, so you aborted mission.

      I'm not going to come to a conclusion for you.  If the developers don't realize they have just disrespected customer service/customers by increasing the workload and confusion for no benefit, I don't have anything to say right now.

      Like
    • WordTenor Am I totally off base here?  Were there actually any visible results from deleting a category with previous budgeting (only budgeting) activity?  What were they?

      Not that any of us can check now...

      Like 1
    • Move Light Sound Life So sorry, everyone.  To truly delete the category in Scenario #1&2, you'll need to add a Step 4 to get budgeted activity out of November.  I was busy doing math simultaneously.  No more!

      In step 3, Nov will actually have a positive TBB of the amount that is negative in the target category.  Assuming you started this process with a TBB of 0, of course.

      4. In November, delete the negative budget number in "New Dishwasher" or the holding category. 

      woops!  I hope the process is still clear.

      Like
    • Move Light Sound Life Also, a bit of a note: If your AOM during the past/present time period in question was smaller than the time period, the numbers will act as described above.  This is because you've already spent the amount in question in a first in/first out type of way over the course of this budget manipulation. 

      It is entirely possible that in a budget with higher AOM than the time period in which you had been saving (depending on the relationship of the amount in question to your average spend), deleting the budgeted amount in a past month will act as a newbie (someone who doesn't know about the implications of a global TBB) would expect and go to TBB. 

      But really, I'm guessing that the number of newbies starting out with an AOM that is equal to their time on the program is rather small...  So...

      Or maybe lots of not new users also don't want to take the time to figure out invisible math, so they haven't thought through the implications of a global TBB.  Can't blame anyone.  I got this crash course when helping someone fix 2 years of unbudgeted history.  Good thing I knew how the program was supposed to work.  It didn't help them stay on the YNAB bandwagon, though, because they couldn't see why I was telling them to do things.  There was too much trust needed.  If I had to do it again, I'd make them have a dated list of all the inflows and budget each paycheck, even though the TBB would be 0 for most of the time.

      Like
    • And for anyone who likes rabbit holes (I worked 12+ hours yesterday, I'm going to have some fun here!)...

      Set Up:

      1. Make a Sandbox budget.
      2. Inflow 200 in September.
      3. Budget $100 to a Microwave category in September.
      4. Budget $100 to Microwave in October (I know, I know, you'd get paid in October, but I'm trying to isolate and show the effects of invisible math, here!)
      5. Move $200 from Microwave to Appliances in November.  TBB = 0 in all 3 months.

      Now, you want to delete the Microwave category.

      1. Like a good YNABer, start in the furthest month past (Sept) and delete the $100 in Microwave.  TBB = 100 in all three months.
      2. Delete October's Microwave budgeted 100.  TBB = 200 in Sept/Oct/Nov.
      3. Delete November's Microwave -200. TBB = 0 in all three months again.  How nice.

      What if, since your microwave was broken, you lived off your neighbor/family for free for a couple months, but THEN, you bought $20 worth of groceries in Nov, then found $20 on the street?  Lucky!

      1. Revert to basic set up (use the undo button).
      2. Log $20 groceries in Nov.  Any date.  Click through months to see TBB stay $0 for Sept/Oct/Nov, but go red by $20 in December.
      3. Log $20 Inflow in Nov.  Any date. 
      4. Budget $20 to groceries in Nov.  Can't have red, right!
      5. Commence preparation to delete the Microwave category:
      6. Delete Sept. Microwave's $100.  TBB = 80 in Sept/Oct, but 100 in Nov.  Weird. ;)
      7. Delete Oct. Microwave's $100.  TBB = 180 in Sept/Oct, but 200 in Nov.  Weird. ;)
      8. Delete Nov. Microwave's -200.  TBB = 0 in all three months. 

      Now, what if you're a normal person who maintains normal expenses and inflows over the course of saving for something else?  Let's simulate that with the least work possible...

      1. Revert to basic set up (use the undo button).  You can even adjust the starting balance to be $1000 just for fun.  Do that.
      2. Budget $800 to rent (or whatever), and do the same $100s to Microwave in Sept/Oct. as you did before.
      3. Make a transaction for $1000 (the total amount of the account) of groceries in Nov. Look at the red overspent groceries in Nov, and the red -1000 TBB in December.
      4. Make an inflow of $1000 in Nov, and budget it all to groceries in Nov (get rid of red!). TBB = 0 all around.
      5. Commence preparation to delete the Microwave category:
      6. Delete Sept. Microwave's $100.  TBB = 0 in Sept/Oct, but 100 in Nov.
      7. Delete Oct. Microwave's $100.  TBB = 0 in Sept/Oct, but 200 in Nov. 
      8. Delete Nov. Microwave's -200.  TBB = 0 in all three months. 

      As you can imagine, bringing in variables like varying amounts of spending/inflows, credit card use, etc, can have many more unexpected effects.  The toolkit's SFTF warning goes particularly bonkers when playing with these past numbers.  You just have to trust that you're using a logical process that takes into account all calculations.

      Playing with the past in YNAB is not for the faint of heart.  I'm very surprised that that is the now recommended approach to delete a category. 

      My husband's mind was blown when I showed him the examples above.   He knows how YNAB is supposed to work, but playing with the invisible math of the past definitely yields unexpected results in the screen of the past (even if the whole timeline does make sense).  He suggested that there should be a button that allows some sandboxing, like a pop-up that lets you type in a change and then somehow shows you all of the behind the scenes calculations that will make an effect on another budget screen.  Interesting idea, but it would have to allow for balancing correctional activity to really be useful.  Seems a more complicated solution to a messed up budget than just fixing the merge category wizard to follow through on moving budgeted funds. 

      Alright.  I think I've had enough YNAB fun for a day.

      Like 2
    • P.S. Challenge to any YNAB developer who finds the mistake(s) in the above posts (that I didn't fix, obviously). 🤔😉🤓

      Let's see you really take the time to think through this stuff.

      I'd also like a good answer to what problem you've fixed by nixing the previously allowed budgetary activity in a category to be deleted. 

      Good night, good week, and good luck!

      Like
  • Absolutely terrible choice. We all gave you plenty of solutions to fix the actual concern and instead you make it so much worse. 

    Like 3
  • Boy, am I glad I decided to clean up and delete all my old hidden categories a month ago.

    Like 2
  • Faness what are you needing to monitor? You put in a fix which hurts as opposed to help. Again, we are ONLY discussing budget categories that have NO transactions tagged to them. What broke for users that you felt you needed to fix?? This means every category is viewed as permanent until you fully clean it up. As a budget saving platform, this seems wrong. You have all these new goals and features and then removed the ability to delete catogories thay were designed to be temporary. How are you not seeing this?

    Like 4
  • Move Light Sound Life said:
    Were there actually any visible results from deleting a category with previous budgeting (only budgeting) activity?

    The common scenario is to relocate -- in the current month --  from the temporary savings category to the permanent, with a transaction categorized to the latter. Save in New Dishwasher and reallocate to Household Maintenance (which gets the transaction as well). Then delete the savings-only category.

    Apart from the Dishwasher category going away, there is absolutely no other visible change in the budget -- past, present, or future. 

    Like
  • Renaming Wish Farm categories is flat out wrong. I save for New Blinds in 2019, buy the blinds, then rename to New Bike in 2020.  Looking back, YNAB says I saved toward a bike in 2019, then completely robbed the category for unknown reasons, then saved up again.

    THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. So much for the much touted "honest" budget.

    Like 3
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 2 wk ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      dakinemaui exactly. Rename is horrible and wrong on so many levels. I never accepted rebranding as soon as i saw a couple reports. Totally confusing. 

      Like 2
      • Annieland
      • YNABbing every day since 2009!
      • Annieland
      • 2 wk ago
      • Reported - view

      dakinemaui I think this is another reason I never really did much with a Wish Farm.  I’ve had a 5 item wish list for 5 years and JUST this summer actually put money towards one and spent from it. It still has a balance and I’m lost on what to do with the category. It’s just sitting there.  It’s not something I really want to roll into a main category and throw off that spending report.  And I don’t really want to add it to a group as an outlier. I’ll probably just eventually spend it down or move the money and hide it.  It’s just annoying me right now and I’m definitely not doing any more of this wish category playing. 

      Like
    • dakinemaui In this scenario, do you delete the New Blinds 2019 category? Or hide it?

      Like
    • dakinemaui I had this exact same thought, but Wish Farms have always been a tad misleading as far as budgeting history. Deleting a category once a wish has been fully funded, removed the category so there was no budgeting history - all funds were placed in the spending category in that single month, so it appeared to be a sudden one-month surplus to the category when that wasn't the case.  

      We're hoping to release new features in the future that will better address category deletion.

      Like
    • Nicole Neither under the new implementation.  Delete requires #busywork and hiding clutters up the hidden category list. (The only other option now is renaming, which is misleading as previously described.) Under the old implementation, it was an easy delete and done for the savings-only scenario.

      What would have been the perfect improvement would be to also migrate the historic budget entries to the same category as any transactions upon delete. This handles all the cases seamlessly:

      • Savings-only cats that are reallocated to a different category before deletion (e.g., wish farm)
      • Category merging / reorganization for more meaningful reporting or reduced clutter (budget entries and transactions are present).
      Like
    • dakinemaui Thanks for clarifying! I use the renaming option myself for the Wish Farm. The category name changes per wish, but the Budgeted column gives insight on what happened. It shows money left the Wish Farm and the spending category is higher. Then view the transaction activity, if needed.

      I agree with   Faness on Wish Farms and budgeting history being murky—and it looks like there is a lot of variation in how folks have implemented the concept. And yes, the busy work is painful.

      Like
  • Move Light Sound Life said:
    Playing with the past in YNAB is not for the faint of heart. 

     This is so true, and it cracks me up because I do this so often. I haven’t had the delete issue because I don’t think I even knew we could so I just have like, 5 hidden categories which sometimes I actually need to put back in service. But I *whisper* like SFTF because I’ll like, go back to Jan. and shave $1k off my yearly gas spending goal, and then just change the budgeted amount every month going forward, riding the wave of invisible YNAB math until I find I have $330 in TBB this month. Woohoo found money!  

    I’m too stupid to be able to parse out how sophisticated YNAB math works in my head, or even on paper like you can. Your scenarios were amazing, thank you!

    Like
  • Faness said:
    Our Development Team is keeping an eye on the feedback received

    Faness - would you please elaborate on how this feedback is being provided? Is it just the "Feature Request" form being considered? Are they looking at posts from this forum (including this thread)?

    Are 3rd party support sites monitored? Should concerned users post their honest opinions on Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, et. al.?

    Like 2
    • dakinemaui The most direct routes (email, chat or the Feature Request form) ensure we can record it, and reply directly. Our social channels are monitored. Faness has passed this thread, and other use cases along too.

      Deleting a category is a destructive action in a budget in most cases, and impacts other features in the works. Hiding categories is encouraged over deleting.

      Like
    • Nicole 

      Nicole said:
      Deleting a category is a destructive action in a budget in most cases

       Not if there's only budgeting history, and no transactions. 

       

      Nicole said:
      impacts other features in the works

       So... We're moving away from a Global TBB? What does that achieve?

      Like 1
    • Nicole Thank you for that information.

      Like 1
  • Faness without rebranding or hiding as your answer, how are you wanting users to move forward here? Here is a usecase i am about to encounter.

    We have a category that has a goal to contribute money each month.

    N months ago we decided to borrow from that fund for something else but would pay back.

    We setup a second category for paying back. I added my icon (as shown above) to never tag with transaction (aka temp) and set goal as $Y by Dec.

    This allowed current monthly contributions to remain on the main category and payback to happen and track on the side.

    It worked so well we actually did this several more times. 

    Now here we are reaching dec with all these categories about to mature and no way to delete them....

    Again, isnt your target feature the flexibility with categories???? You are making EVERY category permanent. How is this not up for reconsideration. 

    I mean think about it. Not all categories will have transactions associated to it but basically all categories will have money moved around on them. 

    Who do we need to talk to about this? This is NOT a matter of requested feature, nor lost ability with a new product. This is your current product that you just took away basic functionality.

    Like 2
    • RIP_MSMoney Without rebranding or hiding the category, all history in that category would need to be removed before the category could be deleted. 

      I've sent this forum thread directly to our Development Team, so they can see the thoughts and feedback listed here. You can also submit a Feature Request if you want to send in your thoughts yourself. I completely understand your frustration and I appreciate you sharing how this affects you and your budget.

      Like
  • Faness said:
    this change is meant to help a large majority of YNABers from accidentally using the category delete option to confuse themselves and mess up their budget.

    Would you please describe what this "large majority of YNABers" are trying to do and how they become confused? Because at present, I think this has broken workflows for an even larger majority of YNABers.

    In my view, it seems that something that used to be quite easy has devolved into tedium because some new users don't understand that "delete" means delete and apparently don't know about Undo when they are subsequently confused.

    Making things hard for experienced users to up the subscription-to-trial ratio should NOT be the goal. Those newbies won't be newbies forever, but they will be stuck with the busywork forever.

    Like 5
    • dakinemaui We usually see this issue when a YNABer tries to reorganize their budget. This is usually after they've made progress in their budgeting journey and realize they don't need certain categories or they've paid off certain debts they'd then like to delete. The latter has always caused a problem. 

      We don't want to make things harder for experienced users, but I understand how this has broken your workflow and I'm passing this along to the Development Team.

      Like
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 2 wk ago
      • Reported - view

      Faness its more than "our" workflow. This is established workflow. Workfarm is temp categories. 

      Rebranding screws up reports and makes things extremely confusing and incorrect.

      And, to be clear, you just made every category permanent. Why?

      Change your workflow maybe. Only allow delete from hidden if no transactions are associated. So default is "hide" and those who know can "empty trash can" by going to hidden and deleting category from there. If the hidden category has transactions then complain or do whatever you want.

      Like
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 2 wk ago
      • Reported - view

      Faness in your description, any category that has transactions go ahead and complain to the user. I dont think anyone has stated otherwise. But if the category ONLY had budgetting (aka funds moved around), what problems did this cause?

      Like
    • Faness Thank you. Please suggest automatic reallocation of the budget entries to the category specified during deletion (previous implementation, obviously). 

      My recollection of numerous past threads is that it's the fact that only transactions are recategorized that was the confusing part.

      Like 5
      • SgtBatten
      • SgtBatten
      • 2 wk ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      dakinemaui I think a simple dialogue like before with two options.

      This category has transactions and funds budgeted to it, what would you like to do with them?
      move transactions to this category: [category drop down]
      move budgeted funds to this category: [category drop down]

      Like 1
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 13 days ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      SgtBatten TBH, I would expect the vast majority of people would use the same category. I would keep it simple and use the old interface.

      If they were independent, I would hope the other would change as soon as one was specified for the first time.

      Like 2
    • RIP_MSMoney Ok, so I'm trying to see the other side, here...

      Perhaps they're trying to do something about displaying a "budgeted" report/graph.  Perhaps that's why they care that historically budgeted money seems to fly forward. 

      Of course, implementing a wizard/dialogue/popup/whatever that moves both transactions and budgeted funds, like dakinemaui , SgtBatten , and many before (I remember CamJPete and the young person who grew up YNAB4ing with their father, sorry - forgot the username) have said would solve that problem, too. 

      I really hope YNAB doesn't dig in their heels on this one. 

      Maybe they're trying to fix SFTF, without realizing that it's not the global TBB's fault - it's a notification deficiency. 

      Maybe they're trying to get an INM category going and the calculations are halting the flow-forward nature of TBB, effectively locking budgeted money from a deleted category in the past?

      All of these seem like they should find another solution than this...

      Like
      • SgtBatten
      • SgtBatten
      • 13 days ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      dakinemaui totally agree. The only reason I suggest two options is to placate whatever silly logic some is using to say it's a bad idea to move the budgeted funds already

      Like 1
    • dakinemaui I still love the idea of moving those budgeted funds automatically when a category is deleted and that has been shared with our Development Team. However, that approach wouldn't help YNABers who want to delete their car payment category after it's paid off, instead of converting it to a "New Car" category instead (or some savings category, rather than trying to delete the history of paying off the car or hiding the category).

      I'll make sure to bring this option up again!

      Like
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 13 days ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      Faness No argument with that scenario. There are reasons to delete, reasons to rename, and reasons to hide. Hopefully YNAB can satisfy those needs without unnecessary busywork. Thanks for forwarding to the dev team. 🙂

      Like 5
    • Faness I'm curious. How would YNAB account for those past transactions in the car payment scenario? 

      Like
    • Move Light Sound Life Those past transactions are meant to sit in that category. Ideally, the old car payment category will become the new 'Car bought in cash' category (or down payment category, or new car payment category), so that funds are saved until later needed. The new workflow reinforces reusing that category or hiding it rather than deleting it, but I understand the feeling of not wanting to rebrand all categories.

      Like 1
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 13 days ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      RIP_MSMoney 

      RIP_MSMoney said:
      And, to be clear, you just made every category permanent. Why?

       TBH, my money is on "because we're committed to providing people an audit trail for money moves even though the experienced YNABers think this is also a bad idea." I suspect the audit trail doesn't work properly unless all the past money moves are fixed. 

      Anyone who is beta testing the audit trail want to sandbox a budget and confirm? 

      Like 3
      • Annieland
      • YNABbing every day since 2009!
      • Annieland
      • 13 days ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor Once in awhile I'm like, oh geez, did I mean to budget that amount?  But other than that, I've always wondered how anyone could want or expect an audit trail for budget moves.  The amount of times a month I change budgeted amounts for some categories is embarrassing.  A printed trail for a single category would be longer than a CVS receipt.  Unless you have someone else using the budget who needs a good kick in the head, why would they ever implement something so extraneously complicated?

      Like 1
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 13 days ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor i can confirm that deleting a category does not affect audit trail for moving funds. :)

      Like 1
    • Annieland My guess is that they're trying to have independent logins with different access capabilities (I, obviously, do not work for YNAB... That's just been a feature request that commonly pops up), which would need the Rule 3 log and the historical budget data... Conjecture!

      I guess it makes me thankful that I trust the person I share my budget with enough to, well, share it.  I just keep thinking of the complications of separating shared space (YNAB, mainly) and it's depressing. So I'll stop there.

      Here's a funny one, though: imagine there are different locks on your house door for each person, and each key opens onto am alternate reality. While that's not shared space, that's a REALLY interesting idea... How would everything interface? Any fantasy authors who want to explore? I wouldn't want real life like that, but I'd philosophically poke around that world in a book. 

      I'm also glad I'm not a YNAB developer, because that's a complex problem and I don't even like how my bank does it. 

      Like
      • jenmas
      • jenmas
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Annieland people think they need it because they have to "pay themselves back" when they reallocate. Or need to see where "they messed up". Because of course the goal is for your allocations to be 100% perfect and if they're not you've somehow done it wrong. That being said, a budget where there are two people actively using it might benefit from an audit trail.

      Like
      • RIP_MSMoney
      • FinTech Programmer
      • rip_ms_money
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

      Annieland The audit trail has been wonderful. Our categories are fairly solidified but we do make moves. We really like the trail at the end of the month when we are working on the next month. Its been really nice to look back when making changes for the next month. It helps with answering:

      • Hey, why did this category get low? I see we transferred but cant remember why.
      • Hey, we keep dipping into this category... should we make adjustments for Goals to stop this? Where do we keep transferring these funds too?
      • Hey, the TBB went negative. I dont remember what I did, can you look?
      • etc
      Like
      • Annieland
      • YNABbing every day since 2009!
      • Annieland
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

      jenmas Heh I actually have done the pay myself back thing when it’s a large unexpected expense and I expect it to be reimbursed either by someone else or certain income. But I simply just write a note to myself.  If I’m afraid my future self is going to look at the budgeted amount and go wth was I thinking?? Again, I write myself a note. Maybe I like to talk to myself too much, but people, use notes!

      Like
      • Annieland
      • YNABbing every day since 2009!
      • Annieland
      • 13 days ago
      • Reported - view

      RIP_MSMoney Wow that’s really interesting!  Ok, so it’s useful, especially if you’re a couple budgeting together. I just think about how many typos I make just putting in numbers and that would be half the audit trail right there. 

      Like
    • jenmas That's interesting, because I always thought YNAB's strongest positive aspect was the way it is a communication platform for our finances. I think things get messy when you use the interface to talk *about* the interface.  

      I'd use outside communication for that. 

      Like 1
Like Follow
  • 5 days agoLast active
  • 80Replies
  • 737Views
  • 16 Following