Using round up bank function with YNAB

Hi there,

Does anyone have any feedback on how to use round up with YNAB?

I'm talking about the function that most banks use where they round up a purchase and deposit it in your linked savings account.

So I don't see any other way how to do it with YNAB other than rounding up the purchase on the software and then adding the 50c (for example) in the savings account as income to be budgeted.

I know technically it's not income but it seems easy that way and it it becomes a hassle with YNAB then I'll probably cancel the function.

Anyone got any better ideas?

Thanks in advance!

43replies Oldest first
  • Oldest first
  • Newest first
  • Active threads
  • Popular
  • Turn it off. With YNAB you don't need it. 

    Just because the money gets moved to a savings account doesn't mean you are saving anything. The purpose of your money is independent of location. Budgeting money in a category (actually multiple categories, since you should give it a discrete purpose) for saving and then not spending it is how you save money.

    That bank feature just creates extra work to record all the unnecessary transfers.

    Reply Like 6
    • HappyDance
    • YNABing consistently since 2014
    • HappyDance
    • 1 yr ago
    • 7
    • Reported - view

    Another vote for turn it off.

    A rounding up or skimming off the change program works beautifully for people who are generally oblivious about their accounts and who do a lot of spending. I've got one of those in my family.  The prime purpose of these services is to build up some savings. Using YNAB consistently makes us all hyper-aware of our money, and encourages us to deliberately set savings goals. Trying to fudge the numbers on your spending or eventually dealing with the discrepancies that result will eventually require intense therapy. 😉

    Reply Like 7
    • Simon
    • tight_scotsman
    • 1 yr ago
    • 3
    • Reported - view

    Thanks guys, I thought it was a good idea for small savings but you're right, as YNAB'ers we are more intentional and I can't be bothered with the extra hassle of more transactions.

    Reply Like 3
  • I am ambivalent about turning it off. I see the point, but I use Digit, which has a similar function and helps me consistently save more than I think I can. Every time that account hits $200 I put it towards our credit card debt, and it has really added up. So if you can live with WAM-ing, that seems to be the way to manage this feature.

    Reply Like
    • TheTabby
    • Just a common cat trying to budget uncommonly well.
    • TheTabby
    • 1 yr ago
    • Reported - view

    I'm not especially familiar with the program, I've heard of it, but never considered it until I was already budgeting pretty thoroughly, and never tried implementing it.  On the bank side, to the transactions show as a single transaction that is already roudned up, or does each transaction trigger a partial-dollar transaction?  Also, do the partial dollar transactions take place the same day as the "real" transaction or do they aggregate at the end of the week/month?  I'm not sure where I'm going with this question, but my curiosity is showing.

     

    If you're willing to manually enter manually enter your transactions or go through after an import and round each transaction up, you could do that, then put the account where the deposits are going as an off-budget account and let it import all the partial dollar transactions to its heart's content.  Or just go in and put in a monthly adjustment transaction for that matter.

    The trick would be when you go to reconcile the account, each transaction in YNAB would correspond to two transactions on the statement, which would make it a bit more of a hassle to make sure everything was right at the end of the statement.

    Reply Like
      • Simon
      • tight_scotsman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      TheTabby the bank transaction shows as two separate transactions with the round up partial dollar transaction coming out at the same time as the expense. The deposit also appears in the linked savings account.

      The problem for me is the amount of work you have to do with YNAB because now you are manually entering two transactions and another entry in the savings account. 

      I was also perplexed about how to categorise the round up because it's not income so I've decided not to bother using the function. 

      Reply Like
    • HappyDance
    • YNABing consistently since 2014
    • HappyDance
    • 1 yr ago
    • 4
    • Reported - view

    I actually do my own manual skimming or rounding on a regular basis, so I do know how much and how quickly the little bits here and there add up.

    Once a week or once a month (depending on how busy/hectic my life is), usually on a Saturday morning, I review my budget, reconcile my accounts, and manually round off my budget categories to an increment of $5 with no cents. The move money tool (MMT) makes this really easy in nYNAB. I used my iPad app when doing this in YNAB4, which also makes it super easy.  I just go down the list of categories and nip, tuck, file off the rough edges of my categories so that instead of 66.25, it reads 65, and instead of $132.38, it reads $130.  And I roll all those dollars and cents into my Loony Fund.  I generally keep about $100 to $150 in my Loony Fund for small reimbursable expenses for others. Anything above that $100 to $150 gets moved to a savings category.

    Before YNAB, I used to skim my change out of my wallet every day. This nipping and tucking with the MMT does something similar.

    Reply Like 4
      • Simon
      • tight_scotsman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Michele Good idea!

      Reply Like
      • TheTabby
      • Just a common cat trying to budget uncommonly well.
      • TheTabby
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Michele I like this!  I started doing this at the end of the month last month.  I think I'll just do it on a monthly basis, but the extra little bump towards paying off the next thing is nice feeling.  Not a huge amount, but every little bit helps.

      Reply Like 1
      • HappyDance
      • YNABing consistently since 2014
      • HappyDance
      • 1 yr ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      TheTabby 

      You're right about it not being much. But I figured out that I'm very subtly reducing my categories by about $40/month on a consistent basis, so maybe an estimated $500/year is slipping away to various savings categories. Part of my brain is absolutely convinced that a certain monthly amount is the lowest I can possibly go, say $50 on pocket money for the month, but then by doing this I am slyly and stealthily removing another few dollars from that lowest amount as well. It's just a way I found to gamify myself and my budget.

      Reply Like 3
  • I think its a great idea for those who want to save every cent. So I don't see an issue in doing it. However if anyone is wanting/or asking YNAB to implement that feature to help them, keep wishing. Whist I would support that wish for those who want to use it, YNAB have shown a reluctance to implement even the most basis features. So unfortunately its going to have to be a manual process...

    Edit: Anyway getting people saving some money is a good thing hence why I support it.

    Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      whatsup It's completely unnecessary and in fact extraneous in YNAB. Which category do you take the money from in order to save it on a transaction by transaction basis? Which category do you add it to on a transaction by transaction basis? After all, there is no generic savings category (or at least there shouldn't be).

      Moving money between categories is a budget function, not a transaction function. The money hasn't left your budget.

      Reply Like 2
      • Simon
      • tight_scotsman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule I completely agree with you. Having had the time to consider the functionality of round up I now believe it has no place with YNAB'ers who are intentiaionaly saving in set categories. Yes the software doesn't make it easy for round up but the fact is that's its' not required anyway.

      Reply Like
      • whatsup
      • whatsup
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule why I agree with to to a certain extend, I'm all about choices. And if users want another avenue to save some money I don't necessarily see a huge issue with it. I think it's a lot of work for probably little gain, but if it helps users, that should be encouraged whether we see benefit or not. 

      But again I doubt ynab is likely to implement such a feature worthwhile or not. 

      Anyway thats my 2c worth

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      whatsup My point is you aren't actually saving anything by automatically transferring money from a checking account to a savings account. You're just changing the location of the money.

      If you want more money in your savings account, just put more money in your savings account. Lots of ways to do that without creating a ton of extraneous less-than-a-dollar transactions.

      Reply Like 2
      • whatsup
      • whatsup
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule arh I see. I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of moving money automatically to a savings category. 

      Reply Like 1
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      whatsup Well, you could do that with each transaction I guess. But then what category are you decreasing and what category are you increasing with these micro-transactions? In that case, just budget less in your spending categories and more in your savings categories.

      But you should be budgeting based on what you expect to spend in your spending categories. If you have extra, sweep it at the end of the month. If you want to spend less, budget less and then follow the budget.

      Reply Like 1
      • whatsup
      • whatsup
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule  I agree you could do it with each transaction it would be a royal PITA. Which ultimately will the solution for anyone who wants to use a round up feature.  I still think its a good *passive way of saving up some extra money that may have been spent or overlooked.

       

      *Not sure if I can really call it passive given all the steps one would need to go through to accomplish it. But I guess it is passive compared to "actively" budgeting it which may be overlooked. 

      Reply Like
      • Simon
      • tight_scotsman
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      whatsup I agree, which is why it's a good thing for people who aren't actively saving in categories like YNAB'ers. Probably only beneficial for people who manage money according to accounts rather than categories.

      Reply Like
  • I like mine. I know I could very easily just save the money, but I like seeing it come out little by little.

    I have a category called Keep the Change (that's what my bank calls the program) that it comes out of, and it goes in to my Emergency Fund category. I use direct import, so it doesn't take any more time in my budgeting. It records a debit from my checking (out of Keep the Change) and a credit for my savings (into Emergency Fund). I fund it with roughly what it pulls every month.

    Could I just increase my savings by that amount? Yeah, of course. In fact, I'd probably save more. But I like it.

    BTW, I did this same general idea when I had Digit. But then they started charging a fee, so I dropped them. 

    Reply Like 1
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Slugger Think of all the time, effort and transaction reviewing you would save if instead of:

      1) Budget money to Keep the change category

      2)Import transactions from accounts that result in an effective zero-sum category change to move money from Keep the change category to emergency fund category (which by the way screws up your Income & Expenses report for those categories... take a look if you don't believe me)

      3) Approve transactions

       

      You did this:

      1) Budget money to Emergency Fund instead of to Keep the Change category (notice there's no mention of even transfering any money between accounts... it's just not necessary)

      People tend to not realize the impact of doing zero-sum category transfers on their spending reports. Weird things happen with reports that are not intended when using transactions to move money between categories.

      Reply Like
      • Slugger
      • slugger
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule That's why I started with, "I know I could very easily just save the money, but I like seeing it come out little by little."

       

      For one, it isn't the same as a zero-sum category change - it is moving between accounts. Even though YNAB doesn't particularly like a separate savings account, I have one.

      Budgeting, and even more particularly SAVING, is as much emotional as it is logical. I respect that balance, and it's why I have been as successful as I have. I have my own demons to wrestle with in regards to money, as do most of us. Much of my savings is bargaining with myself, and so I set myself up to win. Over the years, I have slowly retrained myself to the point where I don't need as many support structures in place. I've also refined and matured my support structures. That doesn't mean that I need to get rid of the ones that make me smile. Smiling is a very important part of budgeting and saving.

      Also, I like answering the OP. Saying, "the question you asked is not worth asking" isn't helpful. I offered a solution. I also admitted that just dumping the $25 that I budget every month into my savings transfer would be much more logical and straightforward, but again I nod to smiling. Smiling matters. Keep the Change makes me smile. Therefore, the payoff is a net gain. If it isn't for you, no worries! You do you!

      Reply Like 2
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Slugger The moving between accounts part that doesn't actually make a difference. I would suggest that the necessary retraining is the following:

      1) check your category balance before deciding to make a purchase

      2) If you still decide to make the purchase, then look at the account that you will be making the purchase from to make sure that it has enough money in it

      3) make the purchase

      The entire purpose of YNAB is to be the crutch to help with the demons. Adding extra layers obfuscates YNAB's usefulness. Stop relying on the growth of specific account balances as a sign of success.

       

      I've been giving this advice for nearly 4 years, and everyone who has had the lightbulb moment realized it was unnecessary extra transactions and turned it off. Rather than fight it, go all-in with YNAB. Budget the money to savings up front and move on. You may even find yourself accomplishing your goals faster that way instead of relying on nickel and diming the growth of your emergency fund.

      Reply Like 1
      • Slugger
      • slugger
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule Your points 1, 2, and 3 have nothing to do with a Keep the Change system. The OP asked how to make it work; I answered.

      You might even find yourself recognizing that other people are making things work.

      Reply Like 1
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Slugger Great, you gave a method for making it work. By budgeting money to an extra category where that category's sole purpose is to ultimately have the money moved to another already-existing category via micro-transactions. Rather than just put that money in the second category to begin with. Got it. Your method is genius and in no way redundant.

      "Keep the Change" and similar programs, just like "Budgeting by Account" are deprecated  budgeting methods when you are using YNAB.  Sometimes "you're doing it wrong" is the right answer.

      Reply Like 1
    • nolesrule said:
      Your method is genius and in no way redundant.

      Dude, back off. Suggesting alternative perspectives is one thing, resorting to sarcastic insults when someone doesn't agree with you is another.

      None of these savings strategies are *WRONG*. Different things work better for different people. There is no universal "right answer".

      Reply Like 2
  • Slugger said:
    Saying, "the question you asked is not worth asking" isn't helpful.

     I missed this in your response earlier, so I will respond separately.

    It is quite helpful to be direct and tell someone when they need to reframe their way of looking at things. It's what we like to call a paradigm shift.

    Reply Like
  • Slugger said:
    Budgeting, and even more particularly SAVING, is as much emotional as it is logical.

     ^THIS!!

    nolesrule - As a reformed "emotions are ridiculous and logic is always superior!" advocate myself, I can say that you are totally missing Slugger 's point here.

    I happen to agree with you that I personally find these round-up bank functions way too cumbersome to use with YNAB. But that's my personal opinion based on my *personal* assessment of how much I want to complicate how I use the software versus how much benefit I'd personally gain from using this savings strategy.

    That doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone, however, and pretending that there's some perfectly logical universal strategy that would allow everyone to simultaneously achieve optimized savings results is nonsense, and ignores the fact that humans aren't perfectly logical identical creatures. :)

    It's totally reasonable to point out the cumbersome drawbacks to using these round-up functions, and you're probably right to say that most people end up turning them off once they get the hang of YNAB. But if it's working for *some* people, and allowing them to gain traction on their savings goals, then what's the harm in that? If they don't mind dealing with the extra transactions and it makes them happy watching their "electronic change jar" pile up, then let them enjoy that little win, even if it doesn't align with your personal preferences :)

    Reply Like 3
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      It is about measuring your priorities, which are both logic and emotion. And if you are using YNAB, you have the tools to put together an actionable plan based on your priorities. Blindly moving money into a savings account doesn't set a priority for that money. Willfully taking action to give a purpose to that money is setting the priority.

      Don't be passive. Be active! The more active you are, the more you gain control over your money instead of your money controlling you.

      When the computer program moves the money, it makes it easier to just say the computer program over-reached and you can just take the money back. If you make the decision to budget the money to a category, then you decided it was important enough to do that. So if you want to take the money out, then you have to have a legit reason to change your plan.

      Sorry you dislike the tough love, but I learned it from arguably the greatest poster and helper in YNAB forum history... too bad he doesn't hang around here anymore.

      Reply Like
      • Slugger
      • slugger
      • 1 yr ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Resistant Punch Roller Thanks. You tried. Some people just can't get it. I appreciate the backup.

      Reply Like 3
      • elsewhere
      • elsewhere
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule The application of the YNAB Forum's "Tough Love" policy that you mentioned isn't consistent though:

      Any "Keep the Change" thread like this one gets the whole "Bring the Rain" response, as highlighted by the discussion above in this thread.

      Yet, a YNAB credit card user who pays their credit card down to zero daily (the "Keep the Change" process that actually burns cash on a daily basis via the one or more Checking to Credit Card transfer transactions) garners no such outrage from YNAB Forum Elders whatsoever. Why are users like this spared the Tough Love?

      Reply Like
      • WordTenor
      • Arranged the menu, the venue, the seating.
      • WordTenor
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      elsewhere Not sure which forums you've been visiting, but people recommend against paying the card more than once per month all the time, from the same, "Why on earth would you waste your time doing that" stance that they (we) recommend shutting off round-up apps. 

      Reply Like 1
      • jenmas
      • jenmas
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor And at least paying your credit card after every purchase has an actual purpose - the credit card agreement says the bill has to be paid at some point in time and is generally harmonious with the YNAB methodology. Whereas the idea that moving $0.93 from Account A to Account B adds unnecessary layers to the YNAB idea that the category defines the purpose rather than the location.

      Reply Like 2
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      And furthermore it makes even less sense to Budget for the Keep the Change transfers, and then categorize the inflow and outflow to move them from a Keep the Change category to a savings category. If you're going to save the money, just save it in the intended category.
       

      Maybe if you were using it to decrement from the same spending category as the purchase, I could see a tiny bit of value as a way to limit spending in small increments... but of course even that wouldn't work if you end up overspending the category anyway.

      Reply Like 1
      • TheTabby
      • Just a common cat trying to budget uncommonly well.
      • TheTabby
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      I didn't realize there was some taboo against paying your CC more often than is required.  I usually do it weekly because I like keeping the utilization number nice and low.  Also it guarantees that even if I forget one week, I still didn't miss the due date, which would happen if I forgot one month.  call me paranoid, but I REALLY hate paying fees and interest because of my own foolishness.

      Reply Like
      • jenmas
      • jenmas
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      TheTabby it's not that it's taboo, it's just that it is not the most efficient thing to do. If you are worried about forgetting to make a payment, you can generally set up auto-pay for either the minimum due, statement balance, or account balance (in the US at least since I don't know where you are). Back in the olden days of the late '90s early '00s you did have to be a bit more active. The only time in my life I've been late paying a credit card was the time when I received the bill, immediately wrote the check (no online payment available at the time), put it in the envelope, stamped the envelope, stuck it in my purse, and then forgot about it. Luckily the payment arrived after the due date but within the 5-day grace period so no interest charges.

      And utilization percentage only matters on the day that they report to the credit bureaus and generally if you pay your balance in full a day or so before the due date, it works out.

      Reply Like 2
      • WordTenor
      • Arranged the menu, the venue, the seating.
      • WordTenor
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      TheTabby Right, what jenmas said. It's not wrong; it's just not very efficient. If you have a paid-in-full card in YNAB, you can afford to pay it to zero at any time. So that means that once a month, you can go in, schedule the payment, and ensure it comes out before the due date, saving you time and avoiding any interest and fees. I do this each month when my statement closes on the 12th. The money stays in checking until the following month on the 9th, when the whole statement balance is pulled from checking at once. This keeps the money earning money for me as long as possible, but also ensures I never pay interest. And if you are going to have your credit report pulled, you can pay it completely to zero a few days before the report is pulled, which solves the utilization problem. 

      Reply Like 2
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      TheTabby The only purpose for keeping the utilization rate low on credit cards (besides, I guess peace of mind, which I use autopayment for), is for credit reporting and credit scores. However, only the statement closing balance gets reported to the credit bureaus, so when a credit report is pulled, utilization is based on the last reported statement balance, not on any intermediate balance.

      Reply Like
  • I used to use Keep the Change & here's my experience:  I didn't bother manually entering the Keep the Change transactions & just let them import.  The problem was that they didn't import as transfers so I had to go in and manually change them to transfers (and life is too short for that).  What I ended up doing instead: I looked through my keep the change history and it was about $20/month so I set up an automatic transfer from checking to savings every month for $20 (with a scheduled transaction in YNAB). Not a lot, but at the time, I needed to see that savings grow. (I thought of it as a generic emergency fund.)  Now that I'm (a) more comfortable with YNAB and (b) mostly out of credit card debt and therefore in a better place financially, I don't feel I need to do that.  I save now to specific categories (including an emergency fund) & transfer funds for such to my savings account where it gets more interest (I know how much I'm budgeting to those categories/mo so I just set up an auto transfer from checking to savings). 

    Reply Like 2
  • WordTenor said:
    TheTabby Right, what jenmas said. It's not wrong; it's just not very efficient. If you have a paid-in-full card in YNAB, you can afford to pay it to zero at any time. So that means that once a month, you can go in, schedule the payment, and ensure it comes out before the due date, saving you time and avoiding any interest and fees. I do this each month when my statement closes on the 12th. The money stays in checking until the following month on the 9th, when the whole statement balance is pulled from checking at once. This keeps the money earning money for me as long as possible, but also ensures I never pay interest. And if you are going to have your credit report pulled, you can pay it completely to zero a few days before the report is pulled, which solves the utilization problem. 

     WordTenor The payment process you've described above isn't very efficient either. Why are you manually scheduling a credit card payment to ensure it comes out before the due date (9th vs 12th)? Simply set up your credit card to be automatically paid from your checking account on the due date.  This is a one-time setup process that requires no further ongoing interaction from you. The bank's automatic credit card payment process will ensure that your money keeps earning money for you as long as possible.

    In the spirit of this thread, let's take a closer look at one of the new "hotness" features released on January 24, 2018:

    Web Release Notes: January 24, 2018

    • We added a “Record Payment” button (next to “Add Transaction” for credit card accounts. Click it and it’ll create a new transaction with helpful defaults, such as last-used payee and payment amount as inflow.

    So, if you know your credit card's current outstanding statement balance is quoted at $4,000 and your YNAB Credit Card Payment balance is currently sitting at $6,000 (due to ongoing, everyday spending), then clicking the "Record Payment" button in the Credit Card's account transaction listing in YNAB will create a $6,000 payment transaction for your approval (pay your credit card balance down to zero (Keep the Change)).

    Would you consider this newly implemented  feature to be a "fantastic feature" or a "fantastic fail" for YNAB users?  Please explain why.

    Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      elsewhere I'm not WordTenor but I don't see the equivalence. As for your the feature, I think they made it too simple. The "correct" suggested payment amount will be different for different people.

      1) For those carrying an interest-incurring balance it would be for the full payment category amount.

      2) For a PIF user it should be the lesser of the statement balance or the full payment category amount (the latter for when the category gets out of sync, it'll be another tell).

      But of course that would require more input from the user to determine the correct payment amount.

       

      In QuickBooks, the credit card reconciliation process triggers setting up the next payment and provides the correct payment amount based on the statement card balance. It's up to the user to manually change it. This is one of those places where statement reconciliation has a useful side effect and could be used to determine the optimum payment, rather than the willy nilly "reconcile frequently and the dates don't matter" current policy.

      Reply Like 1
      • jenmas
      • jenmas
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      elsewhere - also a minor note. In WordTenor 's example, it says the statement closes on the 12th which is different than the due date of the payment. The due date may very well be the 9th of the following month. And if one is attempting to game their credit score in terms of utilization rates, a modicum of efficiency will have to be sacrificed.

      Reply Like 2
      • WordTenor
      • Arranged the menu, the venue, the seating.
      • WordTenor
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      elsewhere 

      simple. My bank doesn't allow an automatic payment of the full statement balance, because it doesn't benefit them to make it easy for me not to pay interest. So I have to schedule it every month. I could do that on any date before the next due date, but I choose to do it on the statement close date because that's when I get the number in my email as a trigger. 

      But also I'm not interested in discussing credit cards with you. You went months on the other board complaining every Friday morning like clockwork about how YNAB handles cards and having others explain to you that you were wrong about how YNAB handles cards in conjunction with a redraw account. Since you've never actually understood it and are pretty impervious to other people telling you how it works, I have long since lost interest in entertaining your hypotheticals. 

      Reply Like
Like1 Follow
  • 1 Likes
  • 1 yr agoLast active
  • 43Replies
  • 2766Views
  • 11 Following