Buffer vs future months

Hi

My main goal using ynab was to create 6 month salary / expense buffer. I’ve almost achieved this - 5 months so far. However i’m not sure the best way to do this in ynab??

1) should i budget all five future months to zero 

or 

2) just budget one month ahead and put the remaining buffer balance to a specific category in the following month so that i’m always one month. Then repeat each month ???

thanks 

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  • That's not a buffer. That's an Emergency Fund or Income Replacement Fund, and it should be a single category. You will then redistribute money from that category in case of job loss or emergency.

    The "buffer" (I hate that word and wish people would stop using it) is the ability to budget an entire month in one go using the previous month's income.  The purpose of this is to decouple your income and expense cycles and eliminate the paycheck to paycheck mentality. Unfortunately YNAB has removed the automated function that used to exist in the previous version to help one manage this.

     

    Besides that, the other reason you don't want to budget out 5-6 months ahead is the work involved every time you want to make even a small budget amount change to a category. it requires changing at least 2 categories across 5-6 months for a dozen changes at the minimum.  Waste of time and energy.

    Reply Like 5
    • nolesrule thanks ever so much for the reply. Thats basically what  i’ve done up to know - kept the cash in a reserve category. I already have a seperate emergency fund for .... emergencies.

      I’m still confused tho as the official ynab advice appears to be to fund future months (unless i picked it up wrong).  

      I also get your point about the hassle factor of budgeting 5 months in advance. Plus the if you change your budget it doesnt show in the current month but the last next or last one. 

      Question - My age of money is 180  days and i’m fully funded this month with several largish cash categories. When i get paid on 25th Sept do i add it to the current month categories or fill up all of next months?? I used to just defer it to next month in the previous option but thats no longer there. What would u do ?? Am i doing it right ??

      thanks 

      Reply Like 1
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 4
      • Reported - view

      Alice Blue Horse Yes, YNAB officially wants you to budget months ahead. I and many others think it's impractical for a number of reasons (including the fact that it doesn't allow you break the paycheck to paycheck mentality because you're always trying to budget a bit farther out, rather than trying to come up with better uses for your money) and also has another pitfall that us users like to call Stealing From the Future. It's best to avoid SFTF, and the easiest way is to use a holding category for temporary storage, which will also allow you to imitate Income for Next Month that was in YNAB4. Then just release it when you're ready to budget next month.

      As for Age of Money, the best thing to do with that is ignore the number. It has no practical value beyond being a mere curiosity.

      If you don't need the pay on the 25th for this month's categories, then assign it to the holding category and go into October and release the money into your budget. others can follow up with the technical approaches to this, as there are a couple of different methods for how to do it. If you receive more than one paycheck per month, I'd probably pull the amount of the other paycheck from your emergency fund to enable you to fund October in its entirety. It shouldn't take you long to build it back up.

      Reply Like 4
    • nolesrule thanks a lot.

      So its not just me missing the option to defer money to next month. Hopefully they’ll put it back !!!

      I can’t see the benefit / point of budgeting to February (which is where i could fully fund to). My expenses could be very differnt over the next 5 months. Your idea of a holding category makes total sense. 

      Reply Like 5
      • WordTenor
      • Arranged the menu, the venue, the seating.
      • WordTenor
      • 1 yr ago
      • 4
      • Reported - view

      Alice Blue Horse  yes. There really is not a lot of sense in budgeting more than one month in the future.  At one month, you can see the whole month at once, more than one month, and you’ve created a lot of extra work for yourself whenever you want to make any changes.  I happened to take a job that pays at the end of the month at the exact same time I started using the Web app.  So each paycheck I get, I budget a couple days in the future.  But because the whole month is budgeted that way, I don’t even try to push things out two paychecks.  The rest of my income replacement savings is just in my category for income replacement.  Once you’re one month ahead, start using your money to do other things beyond budget into the future.  It’s more efficient, and you see the big picture more easily. 

      Reply Like 4
    • WordTenor thanks

      I totally agree.

      Not sure why ynab is ‘officially’ trying to adopt the future month method. Its just not intuitive or practical. 

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Alice Blue Horse To meet the demand of those wanting to budget multiple months in the future... when they explaining the "better way to do it", since the whole purpose of the software is about being a better way.

      Reply Like
      • Patzer
      • Retired at age 60. Thank you, YNAB!
      • Patzer
      • 1 yr ago
      • 6
      • Reported - view

      Alice Blue Horse 

      Alice Blue Horse said:
      So its not just me missing the option to defer money to next month. Hopefully they’ll put it back !!!

       No, it's not just you.  Many long-term YNAB users have come to the same realization, told the organization about it, and ultimately come to the conclusion that Income for Next Month will not be coming back.  So we do workarounds, as nolesrule mentioned.

      IMO, the web version of YNAB is laser focused on making things as easy as possible for people who are living very close to the edge.  This is done at the cost of significant inconvenience for people who aren't living very close to the edge.  But once we figure out what workarounds we are willing to use and which built in features of YNAB we are willing to tolerate, the web version of YNAB becomes functional.  Bottom line, I'd rather pay for the subscription and do my extensive collection of workarounds than try to recreate budgeting as I'd like it to be in Excel.

      If the Toolkit ever breaks permanently, Excel will start looking comparatively better.  I'd have to study my options at that point.

      For the deferring income function, I record all inflows to a category I build called Future Income:Buffer.  Then on the first of the month, I release money from Future Income:Buffer to TBB and do my budget.  I am not willing to accept a requirement that I budget 4 times a month, and I am not willing to accept a non-zero TBB staring me in the face when it's not time to do my budget.

      Reply Like 6
    • Patzer 

      Do you record your Emergency Fund as a separate budget category or do you put all your funds into your Future Income: Buffer?  We are just at the place where we only have house and 1 vehicle to pay off and a emergency fund of a few thousand dollars in place.  As we get funds, for future expenses, we are trying to figure out the best way to proceed.

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 7 mths ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Mare the Buffer category is for collecting all your income from this month so you can budget in one go in the next month rather than with each paycheck. it is consumed and replenished every month.

      The emergency fund is a lump sum to use in case of emergency.

      They are different jobs, so should be kept separate.

      Reply Like 3
    • nolesrule That is what I thought but wanted to confirm I understood.  Thanks

      Reply Like 1
      • Patzer
      • Retired at age 60. Thank you, YNAB!
      • Patzer
      • 7 mths ago
      • 6
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Mare 

      I don't have an emergency fund category right now.  I had one when I was working, and over time conceived it to be an Income Replacement Fund for job loss or other economic disaster of similar magnitude.

      When I retired, it was no longer possible to lose my job; so I also retired the emergency fund.  I still have an Unexpected Expenses category that is conceptually like the Dave Ramsey mini e-fund, except I keep a month's worth of budget (rounded to the nearest $1000) there.

      Neither the Emergency Fund/Income Replacement Fund nor the Unexpected Expenses category is the same as the Buffer.  The Buffer is there to transfer dollars to the month they should be budgeted in, allow me to budget an entire month at once, and avoid all the SFTF nonsense.  The Unexpected Expenses category is a more traditional category for odd things happening like my daughter driving my car with $1000 deductible collision insurance into my garage door frame with $1000 deductible homeowner's insurance, for $2400 of damage with $400 of insurance coverage.  (A decade later, I can laugh about that.  I don't know if my daughter can laugh about it yet.)

      Reply Like 6
      • sgarelick
      • sgarelick
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule Does this mean that you suggest not ever really funding future months, you just hold income in the current month in a category "Income for Next Month" and then fund that next month on the first day of the month?

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      sgarelick Never farther than the next month. Too many things can change, and it requires more work to make changes the farther out you go.

      Reply Like
      • sgarelick
      • sgarelick
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule Sorry if I'm slow or asking the same question multiple times (-;

      So for example, if the current month is May and you have the funds to do so:

            - May would be fully funded

            - June (next month) would be fully funded

            - "Income for Next Month" category holds money to fund July (funds coming in during May are for July)

      Is this correct?

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      sgarelick No. Funds coming in May would fund June. Funds coming in June would fund July.

      Reply Like
      • sgarelick
      • sgarelick
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule Got it; so you never really fund future months in YNAB (never fund June while you're in may), you just hold money in a buffer for the next month (income in May is held in a buffer to fund June once June rolls around).

      BTW, thanks for all your posts, I find them super helpful as a newbie.

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 6 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      sgarelick You can fund June as the money comes in during May, or wait until the end of May for all of it to come in. But the point of passing it through the Income For Next Month category is to avoid making changes in the current month that might pull money back from future months (especially without you realizing it's happening).

      Reply Like 1
  • Slightly off topic - do people tend to keep all funds within the budget? I was wondering whether i should just take my reserve salary fund out of the budget altogether. I have a well funded everyday emergency fund, so it will not be touched. 

    Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      Alice Blue Horse I keep everything that is intended to be spent in the next 5-10 years in my cash-based accounts. That includes Income Replacement and Emergency Funds... aka Reserves, because while you may never need them, they may be needed tomorrow.

      I budget the same amount to every category in my budget every single month. And i still have leftover funds, because I'm living below my means including everything I'm saving for in my budget. It's only the money  which doesn't have a job that leaves my budget. But it's going toward investments, not just sitting ina savings account. if you are in a position to do that, make sure you are maxing out tax-advantaged accounts first (workplace retiremenet plans, HSA, IRAs, etc.).

      Reply Like 5
      • jenmas
      • jenmas
      • 1 yr ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      I do the same as nolesrule . Every single month I budget the same to my various categories (including the monthly amount I send to my taxable investment account) and I also always have some left over so that goes to a savings category that doesn't need constant funding or that needs a little extra attention - such as Cruise 2021 (is it even going to happen? No idea! so not that focused on it), refilling a depleted maintenance category (high priority when necessary), Clothing and Accessories (my biggest weakness), making sure that my next year Medical Out-of-Pocket max is set to be full on Day 1 of the plan year, etc.

      My tracking accounts include 401(k), IRAs (there are 3), Investments, Mortgage liability (offset by a nominal Home Value asset account that I update periodically based on the last few condos in my development to sell, though I do try to undervalue it based on the comps in order to be conservative).

      Reply Like 2
      • Patzer
      • Retired at age 60. Thank you, YNAB!
      • Patzer
      • 1 yr ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      Alice Blue Horse The budget is a psychological and analytical construct designed to help me control my money.  As such, I keep funds on-budget that are intended to be spent, much as nolesrule does.  Where I differ from him is that I don't have a hard calendar guideline for what stays on budget.  I have categories that are spent rarely, including Car Replacement (target expenditure, once per decade) and Unexpected Expenses (target expenditure, never; but see category name).

      My hard rule is that anything invested in an asset that can fluctuate in value does not belong on-budget.  So I have a brokerage account, a traditional IRA, and a Roth IRA that are not recorded in YNAB at all.  From a budget perspective, their function is to provide part (currently ~60%) of my budget income in retirement.

      Investment versus Income Replacement category is a very personal, individualized decision.  When I was working, I kept an Income Replacement category (I actually called it "emergency fund," but "Income Replacement" is a better descriptor of its purpose) equivalent to roughly 12 months of budget.  Then when all my categories were fully funded and I had money left over, that got thrown out of the budget to the investment accounts.  (Technically, budgeted to Roth IRA Contributions or Brokerage, then "spent" from the budget by transferring funds to the appropriate investment account.)  In retirement, the cash flow is reversed; if I have all categories adequately funded and have money left over, that will reduce my draw from investments for next month's budget income.

      It works as a system to manage money when I'm nowhere close to living on the edge; but technically, I have most of what I'll spend in the next 5-10 years off budget in investment accounts.  The investment/budget distinction is arbitrary, but it is a useful psychological construct that helps me keep track of my spending so I don't outlast my assets.

      I use several workarounds in YNAB, including the user-constructed buffer to budget once a month, because that fits my situation much better than the standard YNAB features that are designed to budget paycheck to paycheck.

      Reply Like 5
    • nolesrule  yeah i am making use of tax free accounts, salary sacrifice and maxing my employer/ employee pension contributions. 

      Not sure what those particular abbreviations  are are but probably very similar to those we have in the  UK.

      Reply Like 1
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Patzer I think the main difference between how we handle it is you are in drawdown and I'm in accumulation. The only category with a spending horizon beyond 5 years in my budget is my next car. And that's because my current car is only 3 years old.

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Alice Blue Horse Didn't realize you were in the UK. Ignore my specific account types. 🙂

      Reply Like
    • nolesrule oh its fine, and I got what u meant. 

      Reply Like
  • I deliberately inflow  all income received this month to a holding category, then when I'm ready to budget next month, I move those entries to the To Be Budgeted category.

    I really tried hard to work with the app as intended. I kept an open mind about this when I transitioned in December of last year.  I tried budgeting to the current month as income was received and letting it roll over, and I stuck with it for three months. This made all my categories orange with underfunded goal warnings for the bulk of the month. I can't find adequate words to describe how much I HATED THAT. I finally had to delete the budget and transition from YNAB4 a second time.  I then revised to budgeting to next month as income was received. The trouble with this methodology is that the header information is completely useless in guiding me as to how much was received last month versus this month. I couldn't keep the amounts straight in my head without a note pad and a calculator,  and there was the inadvertent vortex of money being sucked backwards or forwards into the wrong month if I did manual entry. I did that for two months, and I HATED THAT TOO.

    I rather like my current workaround.  All my income is set up as recurring transactions, categorized to inflow directly to a savings category named:  Buffer: Next Month's Income.  Some recurring amounts are known. Others have to be manually entered when I find out what they are, so the future recurring transaction has a zero entry. Then when I have it all in place and am ready to budget to next month, that's when I do a search in the all accounts view, and globally move the inflows to the To Be Budgeted.

    Reply Like 6
    • HappyDance thanks for the reply. It sounds like everyone has gone through the same experiences with this. It’s interesting to hear how you and others have created workarounds etc. 

      Reply Like 2
      • casner
      • Now retired, and figuring out transitions
      • casner
      • 7 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      HappyDance That sounds similar to where I have settled with my Buffer category; I go into the next month and move TBB to Buffer when I get income. That way the income and outflow are in the same month for the budget, and I get less confused.

      Reply Like 1
      • HappyDance
      • YNABing consistently since 2014
      • HappyDance
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      casner 

      I think I'll give that process a try and see if I like it better than the direct category inflow.

      Sigh. I miss Income for <next month> and a header that I can understand.

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 7 mths ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      HappyDance Budgeting it to Buffer in the next month doesn't protect from SFTF issues.

      Reply Like 2
      • HappyDance
      • YNABing consistently since 2014
      • HappyDance
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule 

      Yes.  Will definitely be keeping an eye on that at the same time.  That will mean having to only use the MMT when WAMing or budget-fluffing. I'll see how I like that restriction as well.

      Reply Like
      • Khaki Storm
      • YNAB book topics online: https://support.youneedabudget.com/r/q5w48j
      • Khaki_Storm.1
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      HappyDance what's mmt?

      Reply Like
      • bevocat
      • Sometimes, It Just Sucks to Be You
      • bevocat
      • 7 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Ben Khaki Storm move-money-tool

      Reply Like 1
      • Khaki Storm
      • YNAB book topics online: https://support.youneedabudget.com/r/q5w48j
      • Khaki_Storm.1
      • 7 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      bevocat just clicking on the budget category amount and selecting a new category? 

      Reply Like
  • Patzer said:
    My hard rule is that anything invested in an asset that can fluctuate in value does not belong on-budget.

     This is my line, also. So the cash portion of my investment account at Schwab is on-budget, the investment portions are not. 

    I am still debating exactly how I want to deal with my HSA. I am keeping it off budget right now to avoid tying an account to a category. But now I am spending directly from the HSA which means I can't see how much health care spending I am doing any longer in YNAB and that is giving me pause. 

    Reply Like 2
      • Patzer
      • Retired at age 60. Thank you, YNAB!
      • Patzer
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor 

      WordTenor said:
      I am still debating exactly how I want to deal with my HSA. I am keeping it off budget right now to avoid tying an account to a category. But now I am spending directly from the HSA which means I can't see how much health care spending I am doing any longer in YNAB and that is giving me pause.

       I had the HSA on-budget when it was invested in a credit union account earning 0.65% interest.  I could accept the low return because the real return was the tax benefit.  Then the credit union resigned, and the HSA got transferred to a 3rd party with microscopic interest on cash.  I bit the bullet and put HSA money into an index fund, grumbling about the wrap fee.

      From a budget perspective, once the HSA had investments I took it off budget.  Then I cleaned up my budget definitions for medical to match what the IRS allows me to use an HSA for.  My real medical expenditures are paid by the HSA, and I budget HSA contributions as medical expense.

      If Fidelity offers me an indivdual HSA with better terms, I'll move the HSA there in a heartbeat.  Unfortunately, last time I looked Fidelity only did corporate-sponsored HSAs.

      Reply Like
      • jenmas
      • jenmas
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor I haven't had an HSA since starting YNAB, but I do wonder how I would use it. I don't keep my FSA on budget. I also don't pay with my FSA debit card as I'd rather get the 2% cash back on my card and file for a reimbursement. For that I treat the FSA reimbursement as income (since it is in fact income that I elected to defer) and 100% of the time assign it to my Next Year OOPM category. I also have a This Year OOPM category as well as individual medical type categories (office visits, lab/testing, prescriptions) and I move money from the OOPM category to the actual category as the money is spent.

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor I keep the HSA off budget, pay for as much as I can on a cashback credit card (the rest is paid by check), and reimburse monthly. But of course I'm using the red arrow in YNAB4 for this which makes it simpler to manage.

       

      As for investment accounts, I keep very little in the settlement fund, and that's only because I'm OCD about investment amounts being in $25 increments. The amounts held in cash count toward our Fixed Income allocation. Right now it's about $41 and change.

      If I were to move some of our bank accounts into a Money Market Fund, I'd probably open a second brokerage account to keep on budget.

      Reply Like
    • nolesrule  yes, i liked that feature too.

      i  work for a large sofware company and am heavily involved in the design of functionality. We have a policy, where possible, to not only retain existing functionality but any changes are added as an option. For example, we would have created a settings option to either use red arrow or use the newer method. 

      i can’t understand why ynab team didn’t use this approach, instead of forcing wholesale functionality changes on the existing userbase. 

      Reply Like 2
  • Alice Blue Horse

    Don't you have an ISA option in the UK?  As I recall, the ISA is very similar to the Canadian TFSA (tax free savings account), where there is no penalty for withdrawals, and any amount withdrawn doesn't reduce the contribution ceiling.  I'm leaning toward keeping an amount equal to 3 months of average monthly expenses  in my savings account for emergencies and simply moving the rest (along with funds saved for my next car) into tax free savings accounts.  I wouldn't invest the emergency fund dollars into higher-risk investments like stock (which I do for long-term retirement investing), but I don't see the value in leaving the entire amount in savings accounts, then paying income taxes on every penny of interest earned, when I can put the same amount in a tax sheltered savings account.

    Reply Like
    • HappyDance  yes, we do. We have both a cash and stocks & shares ISA’s 

      i have a cash ISA but chose to increase my pension through salary sacrifice rather than a stocks & shares isa. That way i get both tax relief because contributions are deducted from my salary before tax. Then the pension provider claims 40%  tax back on the contributions  from HMRC and adds its to the pot :))

      Reply Like
  • I’m still confused 🤷🏻‍♀️ so this month everything is budgeted for except changed some categories and added an EF cat and Xmas cat after my initial budget and they are both zero.

    I have 2 lots of fixed income before the end of the month and then my salary on 28th (although it arrives in May it’s to be spent in June) - my salary is always variable due to overtime hours.

    I was going to move the two lots of fixed income to June categories when they come in and then do the same with my salary. Then with any spare - get up to date with my EF and Xmas cat goals.

    If there’s still any left I’d share that between over paying my credit card debt and....

    allocating to July or adding more to EF - does it matter which?

    If eventually I got my salary at end December say and budget for February with that - have I broken the salary to salary cycle?

    Reply Like
  • I'm still grappling with this concept.  I started by creating a category that I called Unallocated: Checking  and then planned to move that back into TBB when needed to fund the upcoming month.  

    However,  that throws off the "total budgeted" amount and sets it to $0 since the amount used to fund the new month's categories will be equal to the amount of what came out of the Unallocated - Checking category.

    So,  even though YNAB wants TBB to be at $0, what's wrong with leaving the "buffer" money in TBB rather than creating another category for it?

    Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Rick 

      Rick said:
      But,  even though YNAB wants TBB to be at $0, what's wrong with leaving the "buffer" money in TBB rather than creating another category?  Does it not accomplish the same goal?

       You have to be very careful when modifying your budget if you leave it in TBB, or you risk syphoning it unknowingly. Budgeting to zero (in the current month, not directly in a future month during the current month)  is the only way to absolutely prevent that from happening.

      Reply Like
      • Herman
      • herman
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Rick my method is unpopular but I just start filling my categories from the top down in the next month as I receive income.  I avoid siphoning it off/stealing from the future by looking at next month if I have to wam in the current month.  This approach has not failed me since soft launch. 

      Reply Like
      • Rick
      • Mvelopes to YNAB Convert
      • ricka47
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule Right - that is something to consider.  I've been using an envelope system since the early 90s and am pretty good at keeping tabs on things.

      Reply Like
      • Rick
      • Mvelopes to YNAB Convert
      • ricka47
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Herman I had thought of that.  Right now, I have June and July funded and have about 2/3 of the funds for August.   I might give that a shot - thanks!

      Reply Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Rick Yes flipping months will make you aware, but it is pretty stupid that after 3.5 years you still have to flip months to see that. And of course if you flip months and you find the TBB is negative, you still have to go back, change numbers and then flip months again to ensure you've fixed it. The art of tedium, not efficiency.

      Reply Like 1
      • Herman
      • herman
      • 5 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule yes, it should be fixed and in theory it could be tedious, I find in reality it is not, I do not find I have to flip months often. 

      Reply Like 1
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Herman Yeah, that'll dependon how frequently and how you change your budget.

      Reply Like
      • Herman
      • herman
      • 5 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Rick I only go one month ahead but you can determine if it's more trouble than it's worth pretty quickly.

      Reply Like
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