Manual Transactions (Including Reconciliation) don't honor/allow Time or Intra-day Ordering

Manually Entered transactions appear to be "from the start of the day". This is confusing, and leads to erratic/"buggy" behavior because:

1. An account can have transactions prior to having Initial Balances - this behavior can be worked around by setting the Starting Balance "to the day in the past".

2. The Reconciliation Adjustment for an account is unclear: is it BEFORE or AFTER or IN BETWEEN (?!?) various other transactions for that day? This behavior seems ill-defined and confusing. I don't "pause using accounts a day" so it's not possible to use the same work-about as for an Initial Balance.

The Web (and iOS (and Android?)) interface should allow setting the Time of Transaction, insofar that intraday Transactions can be CORRECTLY ordered / operated on per the "Date" column.

It might not make sense to have a Time per-se, but intraday Transactions SHOULD be orderable in relationship to each other and this SHOULD reflect with Date sorting.

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  • Hey  Beige Koala , thanks for reaching out about this!

    So if I'm hearing you right, you'd like to see transactions that share the same date (2-1-2018 for example) to be ordered based on how they were entered manually. 

    So if I enter a $10 transaction first, that should be the oldest? And then a $5 transaction second, that should be the newest for the 2-1-2018 date group of transactions?

    BTW, if you send me a reply, make sure to @ me! :)

    Like
    • Dan at YNAB 

      Exactly.

      Furthermore, this lack of ordering clarity ALSO affects “manual” transactions entered by YNAB on my behalf - Initial Balances and Reconciliation Adjustments.

      I’ve included an attachment that should make the issue clear:

      I bought lunch at.. lunch.. and drinks at night. Yet my lunch purchase is “later”. I entered both transactions at time-of-sale and would expect the time-relative ordering to be preserved.

      This incorrect ordering subterfuges attempts for correct running totals, makes it difficult to accurately reconcile accounts with pending transactions, and is confusing and unexpected from a financial tracking product.

      (I would also like to be able to manually re-order the entries, but this is reliant (hah) upon reliable ordering to begin with!)

      Like
    • Dan at YNAB 

      Here is the same issue with a Starting Balance.. apparently I used an account before recognizing it’s existence.

      (1. Yes, I do frequent my local bar, and 2. I’ve had this same behavior for non-credit accounts.)

      Reconciling Adjustments have the same problem. I will probably also end up running into JoeDid s frustrating issue in the next week.. ordering is important!

      Like
    • JoeDid
    • Remember: It is To Laugh
    • Purple_rain
    • 3 yrs ago
    • 3
    • Reported - view

    This bugs me, too. Transactions are ordered by largest to smallest amount for a given day regardless of when they are entered, and worst of all, deposits are always set last for the day. I have direct deposits that appear at midnight before I enter any transactions for the day, along with expenses that are scheduled for the same day as the deposit. The deposit comes last, throwing my running balance off and in tight months it even shows a false overdraft, which is really abhorrent to see, since it's not real.

    As you point out, I can "fix" this by setting the deposit for the day before, but that's falsifying my register, which I don't like.

    Like 3
  • Hey  Beige Koala & JoeDid thanks for the feedback! I'll send this to our design team so they can consider it in their future rounds of enhancements. 

    It's always helpful to hear what users are finding would be useful, so keep the feedback coming!

    And because this isn't a bug, but a feature request, I'm going to move this over our App Functions category! Thanks again!!

    Like
    • Dan at YNAB 

      Thanks for looking into this.

      I still believe the ordering not honoring initial transaction time is is a PRODUCT DEFECT, for the reasons previously stated, even if the ability to re-order is itself a “feature” / enhancements.

      Manual ordering and/or the ability to specify time might be a viable work-about to reconciling accounts, including JoeDid ‘s posting issue.

      YNAB is the only budgeting app I have used where the time CAN’T be set/updated on manual transactions..

      Like
      • JoeDid
      • Remember: It is To Laugh
      • Purple_rain
      • 3 yrs ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Dan at YNAB Thanks, Dan.

      Like 1
  • I agree with the above feature request. It would make it easier when reconciling with my bank account--especially if a few days go by between reconciliation. Ideally, I'd like to be able to drag and drop the transactions (like I can on the Budget page). Thanks!

    Like
  • I also find this annoying because when I go through my transactions comparing YNAB with my online bank accounts, they are never in the same order. For days when I've made a lot of transactions (on vacation, etc) it can be annoying to go up and down to find the matching transactions.

    Like
  • This. Yes.

    I'm new to YNAB, and after having used it a bit over a month, this is one is one of the biggest annoyances for me.

    It is confusing to see transaction out of order intra-day when:

    • I just entered several and they are in a different order than my mental picture (and that of our shared time-space continuum)
    • I review/reconcile imported transactions against financial statements

    What is the logic and benefit to using inflow/outflow amounts as a secondary sort criteria? It is totally non-obvious, and I don't see when it would ever be useful for me.

    My 2¢.

    Cheers,
    David

    Like
      • D Twist
      • dtwist
      • 2 yrs ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Dan -pinging you per your comment above about @ing you…

      Like 1
      • Jannelle
      • jannelle_ynabsupport
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      D Twist I hope you don't mind if I jump in for Dan! Thank you so much for your frank and honest two cents, it is indeed appreciated! I'm going to pass it along to our Design team, and you are of course welcome to submit your feedback via the Feature Request Form

      Like
  • Is it solved now? Probably not. Silence on the footpath. :-(

    Like
  • IT *IS* A D.E.F.E.C.T. Jannelle

    Like
  • Hi Jiří Heger and Slate Blue Koala !

    As of now, we haven't made any changes to how transactions are ordered in the register. Transactions are set to be ordered by amount, so we don't consider this a bug or defect - as that's how they're programmed to appear and behavior we expect to see.

    We don't offer a running balance in YNAB, which goes off transaction order,  but we do have the Selected Total feature, which can help you figure out the balance of your account in any transaction order:

        * In the search field, begin typing the date you’d like to check.

        * Click on “On or Before [Date]” from the drop-down menu. 

        * Select the transactions individually in the order you'd like to compare to your bank.

    In the upper right corner, you’ll see the Selected Total value change as you select the transactions - giving you a running balance of the selected transactions.

    If you haven't already, we'd love for you to submit a Feature Request to let our development team know you'd like to see this change. :)

    Like
      • adriana01
      • adriana01
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Faness I know there is some logic behind how the transactions are ordered, but I can't remember exactly what it is, but I think it would be good info to know, esp for this question. I think that for a given date, inflows show before outflows, and then by amount of  transaction.

      Can you provide information on exactly how YNAB orders transactions? Does it put imported transactions in a different order?

      Like
    • Faness Basically you are saying (in a vague way) that you don't have a column in your database of Transaction Time, do you can't sort transaction apart from Date, then Amount.

      It is a pretty basic design flaw.

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • Been waiting 5 years for the Stealing From the Future fix...
      • nolesrule
      • 2 yrs ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Koala And what would be the overriding sort? CreationDatetime? LastUpdatedDatetime? If you import, should it be the order reported from the import process to override the manual timestamps? None of them are wrong, none of them are right. But there can be only one. Intradate sort order really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things.

      Like 2
    • I am not in the USofA so I can't import and have to reconcile by comparing the transactions in my bank app and the mobile YNAB app. My bank (oddly) doesn't sort transactions by value, so yes intradate order DOES matter to me. Maybe not to you. This was all clearly  covered in earlier posts. So I would be happy by Time Manually Entered. This is what this thread is about after all 

      If the current ordering suits you then fine. But why lecture people with different needs/wants.

      in a full functioned system you ought to be able to sort by whatever value you put in the Sort Order field. I reckon guys using the APIs would agree?

       

      Like
    • nolesrule But ManualEntryOrder would probably suit.

      Like
    • adriana01 By default, transactions are sorted by Date, then largest inflow to outflow - for transactions of the same amount, the Entity ID is the deciding factor (but this number isn't available for view, it's how YNAB identifies the transaction on the backend). 

      Like
      • adriana01
      • adriana01
      • 2 yrs ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Faness thanks!

      Like 1
    • Faness nolesrule Beige Koala  Jiří Heger     Sorry, I think I should start a new thread. My issue is that I manually enter my transactions then reconcile against my bank's online web application. I don't use a computer and do everything on my phone or tablet. As YNAB sorts the transactions by value, they are never in the same order as the actual records in my account. To reconcile I have to scroll up and down to find them and then find them again to set them as cleared. It is tedious. BTW You can't import transactions in the mobile app only in the browser. Again this is the way the app was designed, so it's not a 'defect'. 

      Like
      • adriana01
      • adriana01
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Koala my transactions are almost never in the same order as the bank either when I reconcile. But it is a lot harder to clear a transaction on the mobile app than the web app, so I can see how that would become frustrating.

      Do you have a browser that you can force YNAB to be in desktop mode with? I can do that with Chrome on my Android phone. The lines would probably be too small to use for reconciling, but maybe it would look better on your tablet?

      Like
    • adriana01 Sometimes it lets me use browser app and sometimes it just throws me into the mobile app, even I set to Desktop mode. Sigh...

      Like
    • Slate Blue Koala Thank you for explaining why you'd find this feature helpful! Reconciling on mobile currently isn't available, so I understand the extra steps currently needed. We want the app to be as functional as the web app, but we're not quite there yet.

      Like
    • Faness It would help if the YNAB browser version didn't automatically open the Mobile app even when I run Chrome in Desktop mode on my phone. I understand it would be ugly. But then I could import transactions. Which would make things much much easier. I used to he able to use the browser version on my phone, but it stopped happening a while sho. Seems to work for some people still tho?! Any idea how to implement this 'hack'?

      Like
    • adriana01 Faness Hi Adriana. I used to he able to use the browser version on my phone, but it stopped happening a while ago. I raised this in a chat and was told ' running the browser app on touch devices is deliberately not supported as the UI would not be usable' What phone are you using ? I have a Nokia 8 running plain Android.

      Like
      • adriana01
      • adriana01
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Koala I have a Motorola G5 running Android 8. When I use the Chrome browser to go to the YNAB app page, when it first loads it has the error page to use the mobile app. Then I go to the menu & force desktop mode & it changes to the web view. 

      I just opened my budget & cleared a couple transactions with no problem. I haven't tried to use it for extended periods of time so I don't know if everything works, but I do recall that if I try to go to account settings it throws me to the mobile app.

      Like
    • Slate Blue Koala The web app isn't suited for mobile browsers, which is why it defaults to the mobile app. Some mobile browsers are able to run it despite that, but I can't say for certain what allows that workaround. Even when the mobile browser is able to open the web app, we've learned some features don't work as planned. We're going to continue to work on bringing features to the mobile app, so hopefully you won't need that 'hack' in the future. 

      Like
  • I enter transactions manually and therefore I need:
    1. Preserve the values entered in the order in which they were entered
    2. Add a time to the value for the date.

    Is that such a big problem?

    This does not exist and then it takes me almost an hour to check the input data. That's awful!

    Thank you in advance for an accelerated remedy.

    Like
    • Hi Jiří Heger !

      This currently isn't an option in YNAB, but you can submit a Feature Request to bring this to the attention of our development team. Transactions currently default to date and amount - factors all transactions need to be entered. Adding a time value to transactions would add an extra entry step for manual entry and an extra field for direct import. 

      Like
    • Faness That is true. But the transactions already have natural order.  

      Like
  • Transaction ordering would be very helpful in another way as well, and that is transaction ordering as far as category spending is concerned.  The primary reason I do not use the stock credit card implementation and have set my CC's up as checking accounts is due to the fact that YNAB can't even determine category spending on a daily basis when credit cards are involved.  I have mentioned this several times in other posts.   Example: I spend $100 in groceries using a credit card on 1/1, YNAB moves 100 from groceries to credit card.  I pay the credit card to $0 on 1/5.  I then make another purchase in groceries on 1/10 for $100 but use my debit card instead leaving the grocery category overspent by $20.  I would expect the grocery category to turn red (cash overspending) not orange (credit overspending).  YNAB should know I have already paid the credit card to 0 but it applies the overspend to credit anyway.  It gets even worse if more than one credit card is involved.  Keeping track of transaction order could solve a lot of problems.

    Like 1
  • I've been using this version of ynab since the preview and ynab 4 for a few years before that and this has never once caused me a problem.  I'd "down vote" this request if there was a process to do so, 

    Like
    • Herman Faness Hi, I'm glad its working for you. There are two main issues with the sorting of transactions implemented in YNAB. 1) If you *only* use the mobile app then you have to enter then reconcile all transactions manually which is painfully tedious as the transactions in YNAB will never be in the same order as the actual order in the account or the order you enter them. 2) If you use browser OR mobile version you don't have a running balance which doesn't worry me, but if you have a lot of transactions then it's close to deal breaker.

      Like
    • Herman @Faness  Here's another sorting issue that affects manual reconciliation. My online banking apps sort Pending and Cleared transactions separately. YNAB sorts them all together.

      Like
      • Tobias
      • Toviathan
      • 2 yrs ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Koala Okay, but therein lies the main problem with any way YNAB is going to sort transaction: The order your bank posts transactions depends on when they clear, not necessarily the order you make them. That is based entirely on the merchant who is handling your transactions. For debit cards, the place you run your card at has to actually settle the transactions. That can take a while depending on the size of the company. 

      For my cable bill, I use my debit card. That transaction will literally stay pending for a week every month. So while I marked the date in YNAB where I actually made the payment, my bank will post the transaction on the day it clears. This idea that your bank keeps your transactions in the exact order you did them is not true. So no matter how YNAB orders your transactions, they won't always match up.

      I think YNAB really does need to prioritize adding reconciliation features to mobile, but any messing with the transaction sort order would be a complete waste of time.

      Like 2
    • Tobias Faness  "So no matter how YNAB orders your transactions, they won't *always* match up."

       I do understand that processing date and cleared date don't always match. We aren't talking about that. The discussion is about *intra date* order.  YNAB changes the order of both imported and manually entered transactions *within* a date.  This will *never* match up.  You *can* change the date to match either Processing or Effective date. But you cannot change the Intra Date order. This what the Request/Defect is about.     

      Like
  • Yeah this is still an issue, any word on if times or some other method for ordering a transactions inside a day is planned. My balance is off by 20 cents and trying to map transactions to my bank statement is kind of hard without proper ordering. 

    Like 1
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 2 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Pilot (2903ac015cdb) When trying to match a bank transaction in YNAB, it is either present or is not regardless of order. When all matches are cleared (or entered & cleared if not matched) since the last successful reconciliation, the total will match... again regardless of order.

      To answer your question, transactions within a given day are still ordered by amount.

      Given your description, I suspect you erroneously cleared a transaction whose amount differs from the bank. I suggest you remove the cleared indication from all non-locked transactions and start again. Go systematically down the bank list. Again, you will either find a match within that subset of transactions or you won't.

      If you repeatedly have similar issues, you might consider file based import or direct import to aid clearing. Neither will make such a mistake.

      Like
    • dakinemaui I do use the direct import and usually don't have any problems. But it would help me be a little more confident that I haven't missed something if i could see the transactions in YNAB in the same order the bank has them. If there is a way to reorder them in YNAB so they match, and the running balances match, it would be easy. I normally don't have any problems but it would help to troubleshoot. 

      I did find .20 missing from my transactions somewhere and have been going through the transactions from YNAB and the transactions from the bank. It's hard figuring out how to get them to match up on a spreadsheet or other software outside of YNAB. 

      Like
      • Herman
      • herman
      • 2 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Pilot (2903ac015cdb)  😂

      Like
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 2 mths ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Pilot (2903ac015cdb) There is no way to re-order (outside of fudging the dates, which I wouldn't recommend). You might try using the selected transactions total in lieu of the running balance (since you can skip over transactions):

      1. Select all transactions in the register.

      2. Deselect everything that is not locked. Hopefully that selected total now agrees with the running balance somewhere near the beginning of your statement.

      3. Check off transactions in YNAB as you go along the bank's list. Each time the selected total should match the bank's running balance. If it ever doesn't, that's an issue.

      Like 1
    • dakinemaui I found my error. I was apparently missing two transactions from september of last year. Not sure how my math got all messed up. I was seeing I was missing .20 cents, but the two transactions were for 1.95. They were both an inflow and outflow though so they ended up canceling each other out. 

      Like
    • dakinemaui My balances are almost in agreement now.....i'll just check the ordering later. 

      Like
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 2 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Slate Blue Pilot (2903ac015cdb) glad you're getting close... Good luck!

      Like
  • Slate Blue Pilot (2903ac015cdb) said:
    I was apparently missing two transactions from september of last year.

     Last year?! You should be reconciling at the very minimum, once a month.

    Like
    • Superbone I was reconciling, and I must have had it covered by something else somewhere. Honestly I check YNAB at least once a day. Fixing one thing showed two other problems, which always seems to happen for me, but it's life. 

      Like
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