
YNAB doesn't carry forward negative balances and this screws up everything
I've been using YNAB since their version 4 Desktop App days, and quite frankly the Desktop App is still my favorite. I have an almost constant problem with the web app version because it will not carry forward negative balances, and this screws up all my tracking.
Yes, yes, I'm well aware of YNABs rules and why they think this is a "feature" but it's not. It's a limitation that doesn't allow one to properly account for reality.
Just about every month, at the end of the month, various bills are due, and when those bills are deducted from the account can vary by a few days, and I don't have any control over this.
Sometimes a bill will be deducted on the 31st but then the next month, it might happen on the 1st. My lease payment is particularly fickle in this regard, but without going into all my personal finances, suffice to say I have a handful of bills for which it is normal for the bill to be withdrawn by autopay either on the last day of the month or the first day of the next.
The problem arises when a bill is taken on the 1st day of the month but then again on last day of the same month. That causes the budget in question to be overdrawn, with a negative balance.
If I don't catch this, YNAB rolls over to the next month, and suddenly none of my numbers make sense. The money listed as available is less than it should be, and....well I this plagued me for months until I realized what was going on, and now I know that after the first of the month I have to go back and change the dates of a hand full of transactions to make this work. This is very frustrating.
There are other realities of life that cause negative balances to occur as well, such as needing food for the weekend, but the months budget is spent, but the weekend is next month, but you have to buy the food today. Again the budget gets into a negative and I have to go manual edit the date to fudge things to balance out.
THIS SHOULD NOT BE NECESSARY. Simply rolling over the negative balance into the balance of the budget in the new month should be normal behavior. This is why we are all a month ahead in our budgets. It allows things to be seamlessly transition from month to month. The desktop app did this correctly. The web app does not and so causes the end of each month to be a constant hassle instead of a seamless transition.
I'm posting here because I have reported this issue multiple times via YNAB support and have been politely ignored by support telling me this lack of functionality is a deliberate feature.
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Superbone said:
It will be right behind the SFTF fix.And the restore from a saved export file|
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mjrudolphi said:
Ok, so if a good potion of users want it, why (as a company that wants to make money and expand its user base) would you not even entertain the idea as an option for those who want to have more time to make decisions or track reimbursements.YNAB has stated that the people active on the forum are merely a tiny sliver of the actual number of customers, so they don’t believe that the people clamoring for it represent a particularly large slice of the user base.
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Herman said:
The thing that is real is you can not spend money you don't have. If it is allocated for a different purpose, that is the same as not having it for whatever purpose you want to carry over the negative.You are missing the point. You assume I’m an idiot (or others are too stupid to manage their money). Been managing money this way for 30 some years and have amassed a significant sum doing it.
any existing user shouldn’t be bothered/threatened by this request. It doesn’t effect them (unless I’m missing something). -
Herman said:
It's kind of refreshing to see a company stick to what they think is best for users even if it costs them users/money.Not sure why. It’s not a good business model as it opens the door for competitors to take their business. It’s not like we are asking them to take a political stance or something.
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jenmas said:
YNAB has stated that the people active on the forum are merely a tiny sliver of the actual number of customers, so they don’t believe that the people clamoring for it represent a particularly large slice of the user base.I don’t have any official number of current users who would like it but it would be a good idea to do a survey. I submitted a feature request and their response was - we get this request a lot.
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Herman said:
I'm not missing the point at all. YNAB defines the method they want to follow. They have said consistently for 5 years that this is not what they want. It has been discussed on here dozens if not 100's of times. Seems you are missing the point.Well if your point is many users have asked for this and YNAB is being obtuse about it then yes I agree.
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Herman said:
I think the ones being obtuse are those that continue to not accept the companies consistent response to this request because "they want it.". Move on to another product.It s not like I’m asking them to commit a crime or something. I don’t even understand why you would care if users ask for it. There is no impact to you. Instead you talk down to me and tell me to go use another product. Like somehow I’m a threat. I’m just asking (and will continue to) that they revisit this. If you don’t need it, fine I’m not saying you do. Just ignore me.
regarding using another product, there is none. Mvelopes was the closest thing and that imploded (many ex mvelopes users are here). I created my own with Tiller but google sheets got to the point it would take 5 minutes to do one transaction. I built my own again in Bubble but that got too hard and expensive . Tried a few others but none of them had the features like YNAB. This is a really good product. One change would make it easier for some of us to use and not impact anyone currently who like the way it is. This request is a win/win/win. Users like myself get a needed feature, current users are not impacted, and YNAB grows their base of customers. -
Superbone said:
You are making this waaaaayyyy too much of a big deal.I could say the same. It is a big deal for me. When you have multiple people sharing a budget and also have reimbursements it becomes a big deal for some of us. I get that this feature wouldn’t help you. No problem, don’t use it. But there are legitimate reasons to have negative carryovers beyond a month. I’m not asking current users must do it that way. I get you are good with as is. I don’t want to change that for you and I wouldn’t advocate for something that would upset current users. That would be bad.
You don’t know my situation and what is best for me and my family- I do. I get you and others want to convince me I don’t have a situation where this feature would help me. I’m telling you there is. Can I make it work as is? Yes of course. Is it ideal? no. As a fellow user, you should be petitioning along side me to have this change if anything to make the product more inclusive. I would appreciate your support but if you can’t I understand. -
Herman said:
hey have made it clear that having it available is a problem for some current users. It would not be a problem for me but others are apparently not as sophisticated as you. Keep asking all you want but your own statement says it is not costing ynab customers or money.Right and they can make the product work for all, not just some if they wanted to. If it’s not going to be an issue for you then no need to comment here. This is for those who do want it.
Herman said:
Nobody is trying to convince you this wouldn't be helpful for you. They are explaining why you are not going to get what you wantSo you are the spokesperson for YNAB? Does it make you feel important?
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Tomato Colt said:
if I had to look at a red in my “blow money” category each month it might make me spend less or modify my expectations!When I had the red arrow, I told myself that.... and then I went and still spent past the remaining reduced balance in the next month anyway. I just kept pushing it further and further because I wasn't actually interested in changing the spending habits in that particular category regardless of what I told myself.
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dakinemaui said:
I wonder how much of the general resistance to covering overspending is due to a desire to avoid accountability.That is silly. If I wanted to avoid accountability I wouldn't be tracking my spending. I could make the same argument by forcing it on the user, YNAB is enabling bad behavior of a lacks in accountability.
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nolesrule said:
The accountability comes in keeping your budget free of fake money so you can rely on your category balances to make spending decisions. Fake money happens when you have negative categories or negative TBB.That is a very narrow view of accountability friend. You made the assertion that by not wanting YNAB to automatically impact my categories, I'm somehow abdicating my accountability. I disagree. YNAB doing it for me makes me less accountable, not more. In addition no one is saying you should never address negative balances. What we are saying is allow me to do it on my time at my choosing (I'm the boss remember) - which also happens to make reimbursement easier as well.
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dakinemaui said:
Your comments this far strongly suggest you haven't. If that's true, then you are arguing from a position of ignorance.Wow, pardon my ignorance. I guess you know my situation and how to manage my money with my family members. I'm no newbee if that is your question. I have been doing this in one form or another for 30+ years. I have amassed more than a years worth of expenses and built up a nice retirement nest egg that I will never blow through. I'm also an accountant with a CPA - so yea, I know what I'm talking about if that is your question.
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I have had enough of this nonsense, I am unsubscribing from this thread.
I am very happy with the way YNAB works, though I acknowledge there are some areas where it works better than others, there is always room for continuous improvement and we can see that regularly demonstrated in the releases.
I would strongly advise those that do not like the software to find something else to use and leave those of us who do like it in peace.
Bye
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iwaddo said:
I would strongly advise those that do not like the software to find something else to use and leave those of us who do like it in peace.Um ok. Didnt mean to trigger you.
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I have questioned if I should throw in my 2cents but here we go. ;)
We are a family of 5 and budget via YNAB (was doing MSMoney for 20+ years before migrating). I question the benefit of carrying negative balances (my opinion) but maybe I am not seeing the whole picture.
We make decisions based off of whether we have the funds at the time of purchase. If we don't then we don't make the purchase. If we truly still desire the purchase then we have to move funds around in order to make that happen. This can only work if all parties involved agree to this approach (which we both do). I find this the only true way to budget.
To me a true balanced budget is one where you can pay all of your obligations. If something is negative than some other obligation is "lieing/being lied to" since there is money shown that isn't actually there. But again, I didn't use the old software nor understand the usecases the previous version supported.
This topic reminds me of something Ramsey use to joke about "Your budget has to balance.. this isn't Congress". If your "allocations" != "Saving Accounts" then I don't see the budget as balanced.
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WordTenor said:
This thread is so entertaining. I think I shall tune in throughout the day.It is. I was amazed to come back to 41 new responses today!
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mjrudolphi said:
we’re not the cult SB, you are. Not sure why folks like yourself can’t see that folks like myself are just as committed as you are.Hey, I think you should be committed. 😜I can see that you are very committed to this cause. Keep up the good fight! I wish you my very best.
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mjrudolphi said:
As a fellow user, you should be petitioning along side me to have this change if anything to make the product more inclusive. I would appreciate your support but if you can’t I understand.No, I'm not going to petition for a feature I don't believe in but you personally have my full support as a fellow long-time budgeter. Keep up the good fight and I hope you get what you want! I'm not going to stand in the way but I will give my opinion along the way.
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mjrudolphi said:
If I wanted to avoid accountability I wouldn't be tracking my spending. I could make the same argument by forcing it on the user, YNAB is enabling bad behavior of a lacks in accountability.NOW we are getting somewhere. Aha! You are using YNAB as a spending tracker. Now it all makes sense. If you're just tracking your spending after the fact, then I totally get wanting to leave negative overspends.
YNAB is first and foremost a budgeting app. Tracking spending is secondary. Not only is it a budgeting app but it is a zero-based budget. YNAB encourages you to look at your categories before any spending. Then, if you don't have enough in that particular category and you still really want to make the purchase, you move funds from a lower priority category to cover the expense (Rule 3).
I think we just had a breakthrough.
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I know this thread gained a bit of traction this weekend, so I wanted to share that our stance has not changed on this feature. We currently have no intentions of bringing the red arrow back to YNAB and we aren't fans of having options that make the budget behave differently for different people (it's why we try to stay away from toggle options). It's not that the Red Arrow can't be rebuilt, it's that we don't want its behavior to be a part of what YNAB is today.
That being said, we do hope to better address reimbursements in the future. More than likely, it will not be through a red arrow option, but by addressing reimbursement behavior. This is not on our short term roadmap, but it is on our list of things to tackle in the future.
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Superbone said:
NOW we are getting somewhere. Aha! You are using YNAB as a spending tracker. Now it all makes sense. If you're just tracking your spending after the fact, then I totally get wanting to leave negative overspends.I'm not looking to leave negative balances indefinitely. I'm not looking to avoid accountability.
I am looking to use the envelope method with a computer and not actual physical cash.
I know how the system works. I'm advocating for a change to the software. A change that - to the user - would be an option if they so chose. Yes, I know the company has said no for five years and they refer to the method. Yes I know supporters of the method believe it is a violation of rule three if you don't clear your negative balances by the 1st of the month (although the rule never states when it should be done or that YNAB will do it for you). And if you dont clear them by the first, then YNAB will clear them for you to force you to comply to rule 3 on the day of their choosing.
I'm not advocating to never address negative balances (that would be silly). I simply want to carry negative balances until I decide when and where to fund it from. That's the advantage of doing the envelope method in a computer rather than actual physical cash. Its really nothing more than that. For those who will say - but then that negative balance is not reality or that those not savvy enough will go unknowingly into debt or overdraft their checking account. I don't buy it. That scenario is just not likely. Could it happen - sure it could. Is it highly likely - no (plus I'm suggesting it to be an option). And, by allowing this you solve other issues. Just think of having an envelope called reimbursements and having the option for that envelope to carry negative balances past the 1st of every month. Just that one envelope - not all - just one because you chose that. If you think that would degrade the software making it worse then we just wont see eye to eye.
To those I have upset for saying I want the ability to chose the timing of when to fund my negative balances, I truly apologize. I really didn't come here to upset anyone. If anything I want to show you that people are different and can have different opinions or approaches to similar problems. Per the community guidelines : Respect differences. Keep in mind that everyone here is on a unique personal finance journey, Assume good intentions. Before immediately jumping to a reactionary response, and Discuss the topic, not the person.
I'm not writing here looking for what I'm missing or not understanding. I understand the system and I have heard the "work arounds" for the problems auto forcing balances to zero creates. And for those who suggest I find a different program to use and this is not the place for me, I would be happy to take suggestions. I have used a lot of different ones. All the envelope based applications allow you to carry over negative balances. However, they are lacking in even worse things (no auto categorize, no account links, etc).
YNAB is a good program with this one issue (for me I know - not others). It has a great staff that actually respond in like a day - who does that?! They listen to you even if they cant accommodate you. Its a great company! Their website is slick with nice features. If I could find another YNAB with carry over I would be gone in a flash.
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Faness said:
This is not on our short term roadmap, but it is on our list of things to tackle in the future.I have to be honest, I just don't understand why improved reimbursement handling this isn't a higher priority for YNAB. Reimbursements are such a common part of how people interact with money, I would think that YNAB would want to make their budgeting easier. Not offering feature options is dumb in my opinion, but it's a business decision that you are allowed to make, so fine, I've moved on. But not prioritizing a feature that all of your customers could probably benefit from - as opposed to the ridiculous amount of time and effort you spend on direct import which your foreign customers cannot access (even though they have to pay for it!), is mystifying.
Off the top of my head here are the reimbursement issues I encounter on a regular basis - me and siblings doing group gifts for our parents (which can include birthdays, Christmas, Mother's Day, Father's Day), my friend and I split online subscriptions to several newspapers, I travel for work 6-12 weeks per year and have to be reimbursed for lodging and per diem, interacting with friends and splitting costs (I was supposed to go to Montana in July with a group of 10 people and costs that were being split and/or reimbursed included train tickets, car rentals, AirBNB, taxis, groceries, etc., etc.). If I had kids, I assume I would be buying things on their behalf with my credit card and they would be paying me back. So yeah, basically living a normal life.