Need History of ALL budget moves and assignments

Once again, a mistake was made (or a YNAB Bug) where my TBB is clearly not correct.  It is absolutely inconceivable that there is not a mechanism in place to figure out why.  I can't stand the fact that money can be moved between categories with no history of this happening.

This is not the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last.  We have multiple users on multiple devices.  Nothing is more frustrating than not having a log of what has happened to my money.  Maybe its a bug?  Maybe I did it?  Maybe my wife did it?  Who the hell knows.  

My time is going to go into finding another app than continually dealing with this situation.  The app allows for easy mistakes, I could forgive that if the mistakes could be traced.

Feel free to blame me for making a mistake.  I'll admit to making mistakes.  Sometimes it takes days to realize it.  What I do is blame YNAB for not having a way to figure out the mistake with a log of all money moves.

Yes, I am turning into a YNAB hater and have stopped recommending it because I don't want to support other users when I can't even support myself.  The info is just not there to make an informed correction.

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  • I have seen this proposed in other discussions; having user access control would be great for many reasons. You can have different users (with their own login) get read-only access to the budget so they can see it (kids, for example) and leave admin rights to one person (or 2). Or something of this sort. 

     

    A recent log of changes would be nice too. The previous X amount of actions and which user did the action. 

    Like 2
  • Hi glynab !

    Sorry for the inconvenience but thank you for the feedback! By chance, have you entered a Feature Request for a log feature? That form goes directly to our development team to let them know what you'd like to see going forward.

    Currently, if you catch the change before logging out or refreshing, you can use the Undo button in the web app, but I know that doesn't help when you realize the change later down the road. In the meantime, we're more than happy to help you troubleshoot anything that doesn't seem right.

    You can post details or screenshots here, or write in to support, and we''ll help get things ironed out! :)

    Like
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 2 yrs ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Faness 

      Faness, I'm not just looking for how to fix it, I'm looking for how it happened.  On which day and from what device?  Is there any way you can help with that?  

      Like 3
      • Jannelle
      • jannelle_ynabsupport
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Hi glynab ,

       

      I hope you don't mind if I jump in for Faness here! We aren't able to see that kind of info on our end either, but it looks like Melissa just replied to your email to [email protected] , asking to take a look and run some calculations to make sure everything adds up right. You're in great hands!

       

      As for the feature request, a log of actions is certainly something a lot of users are looking for, so you aren't alone in that. I've even submitted a feature request for it! Our designers are analyzing all this collected feedback to plan for what’s next  in YNAB. 

      Like
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 2 yrs ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Although I was in great hands, ultimately YNAB failed me on this one and it is unforgivable.   Sometimes I give YNAB a pass for things I don't like, but not this time.  I had too much at stake this weekend, couldn't trust my budget, and was stalled for too long while waiting for help that didn't (couldn't) solve my issue. 

      Money was moved between categories (in this case, from one or more categories to TBB) and there is no way to figure out when, how, or from what device.  And without that, no way to backtrack and repair it to the way it was.

      Like 3
      • Jannelle
      • jannelle_ynabsupport
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      glynab Ahh, I'm so sorry that was a deal breaker for you! It truly isn't our intent, but I understand why you would feel some distrust going forward. A successful budget is one that's forward looking, but in cases like this you just need to look back! 

      Anyway, knowing specific feedback like this is a huge part of our feature request prioritization, because when combing through feedback we always ask "How can this help YNABers gain better control of their money? ".  In this case, the usage is pretty clear. 🙂

      Let me know if you have any questions at all (make sure to use the @ feature to ping me) or if I can help in any way! If this is the end for you and YNAB, whatever tool you choose to use from here, I hope it can still support the YNAB Method

      Like
      • Routhmom
      • Hot_Pink_Storm.1
      • 1 yr ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      Jannelle Is there a way to vote for feature requests because this exact thing is HIGH on my priority list as well as a way to undo a specific action in the action history without undoing everything.  I've spent a lot of time sleuthing out mistypes, and where money was moved, or buttons hit erroneously (like the "quick budget" without realizing it, after I'd already manually set up my budget for the month).  It's panic inducing and financially debilitating until you can rework it all.  Mistakes happen and there NEEDS to be a way to be in control of correcting them.  

      Like 5
    • Routhmom There isn't a way to "vote" on features, but we have changed how we collect feedback since this post was created. If you fill out our Feature Request form, it goes directly to our design team so they know what you'd like to see in the future! :)

      Like
      • Lee2lee
      • Lee2lee
      • 2 hrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Routhmom I just posted in the Q&A about this exact thing!! my budget is on hold until I wait 24 hours for support to get back to me when I accidentally cleared my budgeted categories to zero when experimenting with the quick budget features... there is no undo button is there??

      Like
    • Lee2lee yes, there is an undo button on the browser app. If you did this on the mobile app, you're out of luck.

      Like
      • Lee2lee
      • Lee2lee
      • 1 hr ago
      • Reported - view

      dakinemaui i now know where the undo button is.  But it was too late.

      Like
    • Lee2lee If you have goals/scheduled transactions setup, the Underfunded button might correct most of those entries. Lots of people put the desired monthly budget value (or per-check value) in the category name for reference.

      Like 1
  • Well what I noticed is that if you use an iPhone sometimes my to be budgeted amount at the top isn’t correct  and if you keep adjusting further you could wind up in trouble. To double check myself I always log onto my computer before I make any major changes besides entering in transactions into the respective categories. 

     

    Ive had to get tech support on the line before and they confirmed its a bug. I had to delete the app then reinstall to get it to work again. By the way customer support for YNAB is amazing - shout out to Jen, Natalie, April and Dan 

    Like 1
  • This is really a big problem. Personally i don't understand why the money we move between budgets isn't a part of the "budget activity" view. It's an essential part of it when we want to look back to see how the budget was used. 

    Like 2
    • Hi Green Horse ! We're all about changing your budget as your priorities change (Rule Three: Roll With the Punches), and looking forward at where you need that money to go—instead of where it has been.

      There currently isn't a way to track the movement of money between categories, but would you mind sending that over as a Feature Request to let our development team know you'd like to see that feature?

      Our designers have a great process for digesting feedback, quantifying how it relates to the YNAB Method and how it might help YNABers reach their goals. They prioritize projects using that data as a guidepost, so it's really important to us! 

      Like
  • I've been waiting for this discussion to progress. Is there any update?
    I just opened a feature request, btw.

    Thanks!

    Like
    • Hi Cornflower Blue Elk !

      Thank you for taking the time to submit a feature request! An audit trail or historical action log is something our Product Team is looking at closely—especially as we explore the possibility of multi-user budgets, where that would be a desirable feature. For now, as we carefully prioritize our development resources, it hasn’t made it to our short-term roadmap It isn't something we expect to see in the near future, but we're keeping it on our radar!

      Like
    • Faness One of the core principles that makes YNAB useful is sprinkled throughout your videos, faqs, job aids - YNAB lets you be honest w/ yourself, *and hold yourself accountable*.  YNABs Four Rules make it very clear that YNAB cannot work as designed, if you pretend you have more money than you do; or your budget for certain categories doesn't align with your priorities.

      THAT is its true value.  It's a mirror. You may not like what you see, but there it is - so you can't pretend you weren't told / aren't aware / don't have a roadmap to change.

      So, its really disappointing to see this mail trail.  You've apparently been looking at this feature request for over a year.  It's not a feature request.  It's a huge gaping hole in the above core principles.

      Being able to move money between categories, with no record of when, or why, kills accountability.  It allows folks to pretend that repeated infusions into underfunded categories are 'occasional' or 'one offs'.  It facilitates robbing from important areas like True Expense  or Savings cash stores, with little visibility - until the True Expense occurs, or the Savings are required.

      It does not make sense that a $0.01 actual overspend will be flagged as 'red, need immediate attention' - but the drip-drip-drip towards insolvency, of continuing, unflagged, untracked category transfers in the tens or hundreds of dollars a month is not.

      Please rethink this.  It's an amazing product, but you folks have blinders on for this one.

      Like 7
    • WhoMovedMyCheese Just FYI, a year is a quick turnaround for a YNAB feature 😁. 

      I just wrote a long set of instructions about the process we ended up using to fiddle with the number puzzle without messing up YNAB. We used a paper to play on, then input into YNAB. That prevented weird mistakes from trying out scenarios. 

      With regard to WAMing, just make it a rule to never pull from a category with a deadline (or at least use a goal that recalculates how much more you need to budget next month, then do it). 

      With regard to creeping up on the overspending facilitation, those moves should be intentional and from lower priority categories. If they are commonly from the same category, maybe you're in a high spending phase (think heat in winter) or you just need to budget more than you think there. After you make the move, looking forward is more useful than looking back.

      On the other hand, I have a few categories that are set up to WAM between, and I can easily see what I've done. Case in point: let's say we budget $500 for food per month. This month, WAMing has left 325 in the budget column, with only $100 left to spend. Where did that money go? Convenience meals, Dining Out, Treats, and Dog aren't funded for normal spending. Instead, when we consider buying that stuff, we look at the grocery budget for guidance. "If we go out to eat now, will we still have enough for groceries?" This month, we have been sick, so there have been more convenience meals. If we can stay under budget for food the rest of the month, great. If we have to move money to facilitate that, I've already identified the category it will come from, and only in the amount needed. 

      In another scenario, we had a category reach it's savings cap (yay!), and then we borrowed from it to fund a purchase (hey, no interest). In order to "pay it back" to get it back up to the cap, it's back in our monthly budget contributions.

      My point is that it may be helpful to develop structures/mindsets/workflows to help you be successful with the way it works now. 

      With regard to multiple users potentially messing things up because they're not communicating outside of YNAB about making changes in YNAB (or mistakes happen, you know). A log would definitely be useful. We avoid this by having a main budget person and only making WAMing changes with affirmation from the other. 

      Like
    • WhoMovedMyCheese Great post and clearly stated. I'm so frustrated with this aspect of YNAB that I want to scream. I truly used to love this program but now I am realizing that it has some huge gaping holes that are obvious to us users and which don't get taken care of by the 'Product team'. What don't they understand about this problem? Also, the fact that they seemingly refuse to develop a way to print reports just seems stupid to me. The report function is pretty weak as it is. They at least knew the fundamentals of reports and printing in YNAB 4. What happened?

      Like 2
      • Annieland
      • YNABbing every day since 2009!
      • Annieland
      • 9 mths ago
      • 6
      • Reported - view

      WhoMovedMyCheese So do you want a ticker tape +/- audit trail or some kind of notification system questioning the judgment of each money move?  It seems one is a quantitative solution and one is qualitative.  That's going to be some sophisticated programming.

      No one touches my budget but me, so thankfully I don't have the worry of someone's mitts messing up my numbers and having to catch the culprit.  So I sympathize with those of you who may have other people messing up your budget.

      But an audit trail of my deliberate money moves would look like the history of my email filtering for a week, or a spirited google search session, etc.  That would be some serious data logging that 99% of the time would be useless to me.  I tweak my budget regularly throughout the month, usually multiple times a week.  And it can be by mere pennies sometimes.  It's not because of damage control, but just because I like to change plans a lot and YNAB is great for that.  When I make a major adjustment to a category balance I write a quick note in the notes area.

      So the way I see it, if you manipulate your budget constantly an audit trail is going to be an overwhelming data dump.  And if you only manipulate it occasionally, it's easy enough to jot down "1/19/20 -$200 for emergency x."

      Like 6
    • Annieland Nope - they're both quantitative

      Annieland said:
      s o do you want a ticker tape +/- audit trail or some kind of notification system questioning the judgment of each money move?  It seems one is a quantitative solution and one is qualitative.  That's going to be some sophisticated programming.

        No, just a audit trail, and a report based off that showing which categories were impacted by the transfers. If the time basis is left flexible, and a threshold variable is allowed (ie "only show categories which were  donors / recipients more than X times in a month / three months") - it would be useful, and not terribly hard to implement.

      Like 1
    • WhoMovedMyCheese Thank you for sharing your thoughts here! You've brought up a few details that would be nice to have our Product Team consider (such as a time basis for the audit trail, whether it can be changed, filtered, searched, etc.). We have a number of other points we want to address before deciding on a future audit trail feature and what it will look like in the budget.

      We don't consider the current lack of an audit trail in violation of the 4 Rules. Your budget is meant to outline your priorities. When those priorities change, regardless of the reason, so does the budget. If you want to budget $200 towards a Rainy Day Fund, but realize the average budgeted is only $100, that means other priorities stopped that from happening. Other categories can be adjusted to make that $200 a larger priority, or maybe it's not as important as originally planned. For now, the notes section can help keep track of those changes if you want to keep a manual log of them.

      Like 3
      • Herman
      • herman
      • 9 mths ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      WhoMovedMyCheese meh, the accountability happens when you decide to change your priorities and shift money.  If you have a drip drip towards insolvency, it means you are ignoring the priorities you set and not using your budget to guide your spending, you are only using it as a tracking tool. If you want that kind of tool there are plenty of other options. 

      Like 5
      • MiniMum
      • Blue_Thunder.4
      • 8 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Faness The notes section is tiny! There’s no way you could add notes for every category change. Sorry but that’s a ridiculous suggestion. 
       

      On that note the other thing that needs changing is the lack of a decent way of adding notes for the month and against the categories by month. 

      Like
    • Hi MiniMum !

      I understand if that option isn't ideal, but some YNABers use the notes section in a similar fashion. You can let our Product Team know how you'd like to see the Notes sections perform by submitting a Feature Request. :)

      Like 1
    • Faness Actually it can't.  I've run into a limit with that field, Faness, and YNAB support (Todd) has confirmed it.  Around 5K characters - 4 pages of notes can be input - then, the NOTES field refuses additional detail.

       

      so, that workaround is not a really option

      Like
    • WhoMovedMyCheese Wow.  You put that many notes on a category!

      What benefit do you get from keeping the old ones?

      Like 2
    • Move Light Sound Life uh, 5K characters is the equivalent of 4 pages of double spaced text.  And this was over the course of 10 months, so  not exactly writing a novel here.

      More to the point, I was first assured by Customer Support that the field was unlimited - which is why I started using it as a workaround.  Once I ran up against the limit - they rechecked, and found they actually didn't know their own software - and that a 5K hardcoded limit was in place.

      The solution they proposed:  Create another category, with a similar name - and put the additional notes there! (anyone else see the target rich environment for confusion that would create?)

      Not exactly a confidence builder.

      Like
    • WhoMovedMyCheese You might switch to putting the audit-trail type notes in the monthly note area (top of the budget).

      Like 1
    • WhoMovedMyCheese Sorry for the confusion there! Were you trying to replicate an audit trail for all time for a certain category? I picture that being hard to navigate even before reaching the 5k character limit. 

      If you use the Monthly notes section (underneath the name of the month in your budget), like dakinemaui mentioned, you can list the changes for each category in just the current month to make them easier to sort through. 

      We've made some headway on an audit trail feature, but our team is still looking into it and I can't offer any further details. You can submit a Feature Request if you'd like to share your thoughts on how an audit trail would be useful or how you'd like to see it perform.

      Like
  • WhoMovedMyCheese said:
    only show categories which were  donors / recipients more than X times in a month / three months") - it would be useful

    How would that be useful? At first blush, you might use that information to gauge future budget entries, but you can already use "average budgeted" for that. What am I missing?

    Like 6
  • Just chiming in here to say that I think it would be natural — and really helpful — within the YNAB interface to offer an account-like view of each category, showing every transaction and funding action and how it changed that category's "available" amount.

    It wouldn't necessarily be an audit trail for multi-use case, but it would at least show how money got to where it is in the budget, and would give users another, and IMHO very important, way to understand and evaluate habits of spending.

    Like 8
  • Can history of all budget moves and assignments be accessed through the API?

    Like
  • Bump. This is a big deal. Does every dollar offer this?

    Like 1
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Cornflower Blue Wizard No. It’s really not. Maybe go ask on their forums.

      Like 1
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      It's still a big deal to me... Even 2 years later...

      Like
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      glynab 10+ years for me and it's never been an issue so you'll never convince me. I just followed the rules and it made me a rich man. Look forward, not backward.

      Like 5
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Superbone I don't need to convince you.  It is a problem for me.  This isn't about looking forward or backward, it is about accountability.  Glad it is working out for you.  Glad you are in a position where mistakes don't matter.  

      Like
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      glynab It's not a mistake. It's Rule 3. Good luck to you.

      Like 1
  • One of the biggest issues with this type of feature is it reinforces Anchoring Bias.

    Like 3
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule Not sure why I can't see when money moves from one category to another.  Should I give up on seeing when money goes out to a payee as well?

      Like
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      glynab False equivalence.

      Like
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule For me it is the same.  Money left a category.  Would be nice to know when and why.  

      Like
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 1 mth ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      glynab In my budget, money leaves a category because I spent it or I reallocated it toward something more important. I don't get the attraction for knowing the specific "why" -- the mere fact it was something more important is sufficient for me. IMHO, if I could better predict the future, it wouldn't have been in the original category in the first place!

      Like 5
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      dakinemaui In my case, money moved out of the category due to a third reason - I made a mistake.  I don't generalize a mistake as something more important.  A mistake is something I would like to undo.

      Like
      • Vibrant
      • No more counting dollars, we'll be counting stars
      • vibrant
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      This is the same complaint of people who want to track where they intentionally WAMmed from, and I don't get that, either.  If you can't tell by looking at your category balances (and goals, if you use them) where the money got moved from, put it wherever it seems the most needed right now. 

      Like 3
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Vibrant Those complainers made a conscious decision,  this complainer did not.  However, I wouldn't hold it against one of those complainers wanting  accountability...  Everyone has their own needs.

      Like
      • bret
      • bret
      • 1 mth ago
      • 5
      • Reported - view

      glynab 

      Have you considered setting up a "monthly savings builder" goal on most/every category in your budget? That'd give you a visible warning if any category dips below its goal target. Or for a less heavy handed approach, maybe category notes, or hints in the category name?

      Those are all ways of "locking in" a target amount, for comparison with an actual amount, and would increase your awareness if (when) there's drift between target & actual -- accidental or intentional.

      Disclaimer: I don't personally use any of those techniques, because I'm firmly in the Rule 3 camp here. My budget is not a static document; it's fluid and meant to change. I don't want to saddle every category with a fixed goal, because my life doesn't work that way. My goals/wants/needs in September are markedly different than they were in March. A lot of that's due to the pandemic -- still rolling with those punches. But a lot of it is just the ordinary everyday phenomenon of living my life. Discovering new interests and hobbies, deprioritizing old ones, and changing my mind about the ways I want to spend my money.

      For those reasons, I'm pretty sure I'd dislike any audit feature (unless it was completely unobtrusive.) At best, I'd find it an unhelpful distraction. At worst, it'd be a source of guilt -- a reminder that I failed to achieve some past goal -- and become a subtle deterrent to allowing myself the freedom to simply change my mind about things. I don't want to chain myself to past choices -- I want to look ahead. (A long-winded way if saying that I want to avoid "anchoring bias," as nolesrule much more succinctly put it.)

      Like 5
  • glynab said:
    money moved out of the category due to a third reason - I made a mistake.

    How do you know there was a mistake? Seems like whatever that tells you that would also suggest a suitable "correction"... all without an audit trail.

    Honestly, pick on the lowest priority category that has money. You'll note that is probably not where the money moved to.

    Like 2
  • I am sure that many of you use features that I don't.  I don't try to debate you into not needing them. 

    Rule 3, the overspending rule?  Was my repair bill unexpectedly too high?  No, I hit the wrong key on my phone.  What was the wrong key?  Who cares, just Rule 3 it.  

    Should we take away the undo button in the web version as well and just have a popup that says "Rule 3, role with the punches...".  After all, mistakes apparently can't be made because you can just implement Rule 3.  

    Good luck?  Going to need it when accountability is not available.

    Not too sure why you guys are lashing out about this topic after 2 years?  It is just information that I would like to have and you would prefer that I don't.  The information wasn't there and isn't there.  I understand that you would lose your ability to budget if I had access to see when and why money left a category.

    Like
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      glynab if you are fat fingering your categories so often that you need a change to the budget software to know where they started from, you should probably only budget on web. 
       

      It’s not that people are harping on you about a feature. This is one of those features, the strong desire for which actually shows there’s something fundamental about the way you're thinking about your budget which many of us have learned over years of fine tuning our budget practice is not a helpful way to think about the budget. When you’re buffered, and you’re using your category balances to guide your spending, and you’re not covering overspends after the fact, the information of where the category was “supposed” to be ends up being irrelevant. So if this is super important to you, the better solution is to get fully buffered and use your budget to make every spending decision. 

      Like 2
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      I’ll add also that when you’re buffered, the information about where the category started is usually there. In non pandemic times, $225 is enough for groceries for me for a month. If the budgeted number is higher than that, I know I sent additional money there. 

      Like 1
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      glynab There's nothing wrong with having an undo button and I'm sure it will eventually be added to the companion apps. The history of all budget moves on the other hand is superfluous and I doubt YNAB would ever add it but you're welcome to petition for it and hold out hope. 

      Like 1
    •  I actually see both sides of this issue.  If we worry too much about whether we stuck to the original plan then we aren’t really following rule 3.  This has been a major adjustment for me as my old software clearly showed any envelope transfers from other envelopes.  It also left the budgeted amount for the month.  So this takes getting used to.

      As someone who is not yet buffered a full month not seeing transfers can be problematic.  When I get new money in TBB I have several yellow categories, some of them were never funded and need to be.  Others were and then the money was taken for a higher priority so I don’t necessarily want to rebudget that money this month. Right now I’m having to rely on my memory.

      Like 2
    • Slate Gray Sander The audit trail report request isnt "...about worrying about whether we stuck to the original plan".  Its about quickly identifying any patterns of routinely moving money between categories in a way that makes Rule 3 the equivalent of covering one credit card balance with a cash advance from another.  Even if the other card  has a one year, no interest payback, you still have moved that money, and that obligation will need to be met sometime.

      Like
  • glynab said:
    I am sure that many of you use features that I don't.  I don't try to debate you into not needing them. 

     My concern is that the feature you're proposing is more than just something I don't need. It's something that would potentially degrade my experience with YNAB, unless it was implemented in a completely ignorable and unobtrusive way. 

    (And even then, as a fellow paid subscriber, I'd selfishly prefer the company to spend its resources developing features that actually provide me some benefit.)

    I think an audit trail is antithetical to Rule 3, and Rule 3 is an essential part of what differentiates YNAB from its competitors (IMHO).

     

    That said, it's been ages since I looked at it closely, but you might check out Goodbudget.com (a YNAB competitor). Moving money between envelopes is a (virtual) "transfer" in the Goodbudget system, which I assume is logged and reviewable. That was exactly the feature that disinterested me in their product; it felt like too much friction (too many clicks) for something that I tend to do frequently. (Again, Rule 3.) But it may be exactly what you want.

    Cheers

    Like 3
    • bret You're equating apples and oranges.  

      As per your link, Goodbudget  category moves become actual transactions in the account ledger- which  would clearly junk up those account views, making reconciliation a pain in the backside, and providing little if no visibility.

      The audit trail  I'm proposing is a report specifically showing moves between categories, with a rollup to  identify patterns.  It wouldn't contaminate the ledger, and it makes Rule 3 something that gets implemented with full transparency.  That report would no more degrade the experience with YNAB then the net worth report (which many don't use because the import feature for many investment / retirement accounts, if it works, is a one shot static number)

      Like 1
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      WhoMovedMyCheese Of course somebody named "WhoMovedMyCheese" is going to want an audit trail. You can't just accept the fact that your cheese has been moved and enjoy it from its new location. You want to know who did it and why! Just eat the moved cheese and carry on. 😉

      Like 2
    • Superbone 😂

      but what if you found only half your cheese?! 

      (I’m very much pro YNAB rules, don’t have a strong opinion on how to ease people into them, but just this evening my budget unexpectedly said I had overbudgeted. I don’t know how it happened or what I did, so just now wouldn’t say no to a trail)

      Like 1
  • For me it would be nice if an audit trail existed of what got changed. I dont think I need undo ability but audit would be great. When multi users are in play across multi access points (mobile, web), having an audit would be great. Even for my own remembering as the month progresses or even months later. There have been several convs on our end of:

    "Hey, these numbers dont look right. Did u do something?"

    "Oh umm, I did something to accomplish X"

    "Hmm okay. How did u do that because this other aspect now doesnt seem right"

    "Yeah, dont remember what I did"

    Like 1
  • Speaking more to the general discussion here of whether tracking changes is worthwhile: The question is interesting because I think it's easy for an experienced user, someone for whom different ways of thinking about money or a budget have become second-nature, to forget what it is like to be a new YNABer.

    In an idealized sense, sure, all that matters is the final state of your budget, and it's your best data. Use Rule Three, make changes, and the end state is "right". If I needed $700 in groceries, I needed $700 in groceries. Period.

    But there is risk there of that becoming more dogmatic than pragmatically useful, of not empathizing with what is like to learn something new, and what it is like to establish trust in a system and oneself. YNAB has failed too many new folks over the years by insisting that they change their mindset or mental model in one fell swoop.

    When it comes to changing your budget with Rule Three, it may be that some sort of trail inspires more confidence in the ability to make those very changes, and uses a record of the changes themselves as a powerful learning tool—all in the name of getting to the same end point.

    "Whoa! How did I end up budgeting so much there? ... Oh right, now I see, I remember that." Now heading into the next month, I am armed with understanding of not just the end result, but of the process I went through to get there. As someone new to anything, it is helpful to see patterns over time, and the path to the end state—that's how we learn.

    Like 7
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Todd It's not so much we forget what it's like to be a newbie, but rather the sooner the newbie can make the paradigm shift, the better off they will be. When you provide functionality that prevents the paradigm shift, they will use it as a crutch rather than make the shift.

      Like 3
    • nolesrule Calling a proposed enhancement that reveals patterns of regretted behavior, in favor of 'just be perfect' - is silly.  The purpose of automation is to reduce the possibility of human error.  If an audit trail is a crutch, YNAB itself could be considered one, writ large.  Without automation and the transparency it brings, you could get the same results with an excel spreadsheet, or on paper, and the Four Rules.

      Like 1
  • nolesrule said:
    but rather the sooner the newbie can make the paradigm shift, the better off they will be

     I disagree nolesrule . The important thing is that they make the shift, not that they make it in X amount of time. If speed is too much the essence and someone leaves, quits, or breaks because it's too fast, then they never get there. 

    Like 1
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Todd If the important thing is to make the shift, then giving something that will prevent them from making the shift is counter-productive.

      Like
      • ToddYNAB Team
      • YNAB's CPO | Four Rules since 2009
      • Todd
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      nolesrule  Of course. We'll just have to disagree about whether that is the case. ;) 

      Like
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      Todd One of the best things that happened to me as a new YNABer was the inflexibilty of YNAB 4 and people like Patzer, Superbone, and Joel who were kindly uncompromising in their rejection of my insistence that my way was better. It revolutionized how I think about all my money, not just the little corner that is my YNAB budget and I am a much wealthier woman seven years later as a result. 
       

      I realize that broke people are a lot more likely to buy the product if it works well with the mentality that is keeping them from getting ahead instead of forcing them into new ways of thinking. Yet, I am letting my financial planner go next week because I don’t need her anymore. I don’t think the current version of YNAB, with all its support materials and nice communities where people get upset if anyone says “Hey there actually is a right way to do this” would ever have enabled me to get to this point with my money. I feel sad for new YNAB users that all they get now is software. It’s loads better than nothing, but it’s not transformative anymore.

      So yes, I reject out of hand the idea that I’ve “forgotten what it was like.” It’s precisely *because* I remember what it was like. 

      Like 3
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      I am always struck by the times on Reddit and Facebook that I give a response about budget philosophy (one was just yesterday, and was about this very issue) and several people go “OH MY GOD THIS IS GENUIS” and I’m like, “Yeah. This is how YNAB used to teach this and they don’t anymore.”

      Like 3
      • ToddYNAB Team
      • YNAB's CPO | Four Rules since 2009
      • Todd
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor We don't disagree on the positive elements of being opinionated where it counts. We just disagree, in this case, that making visible to someone the Rule Three actions they took would impair their ability to adopt the YNAB method. I happen to think it could help people use Rule Three more (and/or more effectively), not less.

      Like 1
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 1 mth ago
      • 5
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      Todd With all the people who clamor for a way to track paybacks when they "borrow" from categories, I strongly suspect this feature will cause them to stagnate with that view rather than embrace the viewpoint that their initial guess was simply not perfect.

      I can see a detailed & persistent Undo capability that might have such information (similar to various image editing tools). In other words, it's available if they dig a little. I agree with nolesrule that if you give new users a sturdy crutch, most will continue to limp.

      Just a persistent Undo alone would do a lot for people feeling comfortable reallocating or reorganizing. Perhaps with savepoints. That was a much loved feature of YNAB4.

      Like 5
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 6
      • Reported - view

       Todd Well, I hope for the sake of the people who are buying YNAB that you're right. But I suspect that this increasing press to make the software conform to the confused new user than strongly nudging the new user conform to the underlying philosophy of the software is going to mostly help YNAB get subscribers rather than help the subscribers learn to budget.


      I can tell you exactly what I would've done with this feature. I was aces at paying myself back for various things. That was exactly what I had already been doing in my elaborate budget by account method. My budget would've become a track record of all my failures as a budgeter and I would've spent lots of time trying to "make up" for perfectly good moves. Of course, a good YNABer knows these aren't failures; they're changes of priority. But given a tool that would allow me to track all those failures, I likely would never have learned to think about them as changes in priority. 

      The really interesting thing is that learning to think about my money as reflecting my priorities has had ripple effects far beyond my budget. Learning to own a choice to increase money here and decrease it there not as a failure affects everything from my investments on down. 

      I agree with  dakinemaui that probably what is needed here is a persistent undo or save point (a feature YNAB used to have) or an undo on mobile (which is weirdly still not here after 4 years). I urge the company to listen hard to the really successful longtime users who think this is not a good idea instead of the users who are struggling to become longterm users who naturally feel like they need it. 

      Like 6
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor 

      WordTenor said:
      My budget would've become a track record of all my failures as a budgeter and I would've spent lots of time trying to "make up" for perfectly good moves. Of course, a good YNABer knows these aren't failures; they're changes of priority. But given a tool that would allow me to track all those failures, I likely would never have learned to think about them as changes in priority. 

      Very well said. If you allow users to keep doing what they've always done, they'll keep doing it. It's as simple as that. I think you answered your own question though. If there's a choice between selling more software subscriptions and keeping the method pure along with the magic that goes along with it, YNAB is choosing the money. And I don't know if you can blame them. Of course they want their users to improve their financial status but they also want to make money while doing it and that takes precedence.

      This was obvious to me when nYNAB was released and the old Rule 4 (it was even Rule 1 before that!), Live on Last Month's Income, was replaced by Age Your Money and the dubious AOM metric. YNAB will continue to make more and more money but the YNAB system will continue to get more and more watered down.

      Like 2
    • Todd That's precisely the point I was making, 8 months ago.  Rule 3 the handgun of budgeting rules...it can be used for good or ill, if a user's "roll with the punches" approach, leads to persistent defunding of more important allocations.  The audit trail / report would make the current 'stealth steals' between categories radically transparent and easily actioned. 

      Like 2
    • WordTenor I think you're misstating both the scope and the intent of the ask for an audit trail.

      Its not intended, nor would it be used by most, as a  "woe is me" failure record.  It's to specifically and quickly highlight patterns of behavior that require extensive manual inspection under the current software - which automation essentially its purpose.  The current stealth moves between categories  disguise those individually, and as identifiable patterns. 

      Like 1
    • nolesrule Maybe I'm just missing the context here, since I've been off the board for awhile - but I don't get this.

      How  is providing an audit trail report, that shows where the category moves occurred, and rolling these up into a display making patterns clear - result in folks not shifting to intelligent application of Rule 3?

      Like 1
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 3
      • Reported - view

      WhoMovedMyCheese You’re mistaken that a majority of users would not use it that way. Hang out for the better part of a decade on places where brand new YNAB users are and you’ll discover that one of the number one things they struggle with is not having a clear visible spanking when they’ve not correctly predicted their expenses. The shift to a budget that is not about whether or not you met some arbitrary goal is extremely difficult, and yet it’s one of the most powerful parts of this method. Providing a spanking indicator is not useful in making that shift. 
       

      when you’re applying classic rule 4 and a principled rule 3, knowing whether or not you exceeded your initial target is a piece of cake, so not sure what you mean by “extensive manual inspection.” My grocery budget is $225. Since March, it’s been a lot higher. This month so far it’s $386. I don’t have to worry about where the money came from, because I trust that I didn’t move the money from any place that was a higher priorty than more groceries.  I know that groceries is up because I know what groceries usually is. And I know that it’s fine that it’s up. 
       

      lots of new users seem to have the problem that they’re just moving money around their budget willy-nilly, so of course they want an audit trail because they aren’t thinking about what they’re doing when they move money. One of the most common newbie problems is “How do I make sure I don’t overspend this category?” The answer to that is not a programmatic one. The solution is not to provide an audit trail, but for people to learn to think. 

      Like 3
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor What you like to remember is what I would like presented to me by the software.

      Like
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 1 mth ago
      • 4
      • Reported - view
      WhoMovedMyCheese said:
      if a user's "roll with the punches" approach, leads to persistent defunding of more important allocations

      If they are persistently defunding a category, then that shouldn't be one of the more important categories. 

      Like 4
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      If life were all about Rule 3, I could do that without YNAB.  One bank account and pay the bills that come in... 

      I personally put a lot more weight on planning and categorization using Rules 1 and 2.  Rule 3 is for a fallback when needed,  not just an excuse or catchall.  It is all a feedback cycle.  Seeing the details helps optimize the loop.

      Like
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      glynab If you’re not really using rule 3 why need an audit trail? 

      Like
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor Don't recall saying that.  And an audit trail would help reinforce Rules 1 and 2, the ones I value more.  Rule 3 is certainly still available for a fallback when the unexpected expense shows up.

      Like
    • WordTenor Just curious - back in the days of YNAB4 how did newbies learn about the YNAB philosophy? Actually, how do they learn about it now as well?

      (I bought the book on Kindle back in 2018 and had no idea at the time it was a budgeting software - I thought it was just a book with a great new way to think about budgeting! Then at some point the book mentioned the software so I decided to try it (I'm an accountant and had been using Quicken for my personal finances for 20+ years prior to that). By that that point I already knew about the philosophies, I just had to learn how to use the actual software to implement them...)

      I'm constantly surprised on the Facebook groups what people don't know even while using the software/app!

      Like
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Periwinkle Flute I can tell you how I learned back in the day. This was before YNAB 4, before YNAB 3. There was no book. But there was documentation. There were the four rules. I read them over and over again until they started to stick. Started using the software. Read the rules again. Kept using the software and getting better with money. Found the original forums. Discovered I was still doing some things wrong. Fixed them. Continued to learn from the forums. Asked questions. Mastered my money.  

      Like 2
      • jenmas
      • jenmas
      • 1 mth ago
      • 4
      • Reported - view

      Periwinkle Flute I started with YNAB4. I took every single live class offered. I read the documentation. I participated in the original forums. Back then, YNAB stated that they considered themselves to be an educational company first and foremost and the software was a tool to support the method. Though to be absolutely honest, I was one of the people that the whole method clicked for almost instantly, I just needed some reinforcement on the mechanics.

      I completely and immediately embraced the idea that location of funds is different than purpose so if someone gives me a $50 gift certificate to Home Depot, I will add those funds to my single Gift Card account and budget $50 to eating out. I don't care where I WAM from. I trust that if I decided to reallocate from a category, I made the right decision and don't look back. Also, I can tell at a glance if a category has been WAM'd from because I budget the exact same amount to 95% of my categories each and every month. I don't use goals. I do 100% manual entry.

      Like 4
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Periwinkle Flute I started in 2013, one year into YNAB 4. At that time, there were oodles of testimonials, really clear support materials which were not so video-based, and a very friendly forum. I took all the webinars, many more than once. The forum was full of people like Superbone, who had been using the software for years and who had biting insight into the nuances of it. The support materials themselves were really different—they focused heavily on the method and were much less cutesy. There was a wonderful video and page which showed the three steps of budgeting: get money, budget money, spend money. It was then used to extrapolate to the credit card float and show how floating was spend money, get money, in the wrong order. The support materials were laser focused on how YNAB was different and how the method worked. That you basically can’t get to them now is a real shame because many of the old ones are much clearer than the new ones.
       

      The book is actually a great place to have started, though I can’t stand the new explanation of Rule 4 which is no longer really a thing you can take action on. And I find Jesse’s choice not to save for his kids college to be irresponsible and not generalizable to the average YNAB user. But generally its focus on the method rather than the software is welcome and I find it sorely lacking in most of the current materials. 

      Like 1
    • dakinemaui I agree in principle.  But 'should be' is aspirational.  Again, I see the point of software automation, especially in YNAB, as taking the pain out of drudgery (imagine doing YNAB as a set of principles on paper!), and insurance against human error.

      Like 1
  • Todd said:
    We don't disagree on the positive elements of being opinionated where it counts. We just disagree, in this case, that making visible to someone the Rule Three actions they took would impair their ability to adopt the YNAB method.

    As far as I'm concerned, y'all completely BROKE rule four in the new YNAB. (It became an exercise for the user rather than something reinforced by the app.)

    It sounds like rule 3 is heading in the same direction.

    The method is becoming more unrecognizable with every iteration. I worry the company has lost its way.

    But if you care about "making things visible" to users, here's a suggestion on where to start: The unresolved Stealing From The Future bug that is now 4 years old.

    Like 3
  • Slate Gray Sander said:
    then the money was taken for a higher priority so I don’t necessarily want to rebudget that money this month. Right now I’m having to rely on my memory

    I wouldn't rely on my memory, my priorities then may be different than my priorities today. When I get money, I just ask myself what needs it most right now. If that's one of the categories I robbed earlier then so be it.

    Like 1
    • dakinemaui but don’t you agree that deciding on priorities is rather a complicated thing? I mean, not complicated in a way, but ever shifting, dependant on things happening, but also on your thougths and feelings of the moment. When I’m feeling anxious (influenced boy both the news I just read as well as being tired, for example) I’m more likely to value a bigger sum for a loss of income category. When the sun shines, I have just been out for a run and feel confident, I’m ready to spend it on some new professional clothes to feel confident in the job interview I’m going to arrange.

      The above doesn’t keep me from applying the 4 rules (I wasn’t around back then, but use living on last months income anyway. Glad the forum explained), but I wouldn’t be able to put all my categories in an exact order of importance....

      Like
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 1 mth ago
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      Powder Blue Pony Oh yes, I absolutely do feel they shift about. That's precisely why I want to evaluate using today's priorities when I get more money. I might be hard pressed to put all my categories in order of priority. However, I don't have to.

      When reallocating, I only need to find the lowest priority out of everything, which is pretty easy. Even if I don't get it exactly right (perhaps it's the second-lowest), as long as it's lower than where the money is going, that's good enough.

      Conversely, when I get new money, I only need to find the most important thing that needs more money. Even if I reverse #1 and #2, hopefully there's enough to fund both. it's only when I get to the dividing line where I'm out of money that order starts to matter. I might have trouble deciding #18 and #19, but so what? If I have trouble deciding, then they are obviously very close in priority! So I just pick one. I can always reallocate later if it becomes apparent I was wrong.

      Like 4
    • dakinemaui ok, looking at it like that might be why it doesn’t bother me too much in practice.

      in the beginning I drove myself mad with changing everything over and over. Because of coming up with competing very important categories again and again.  Often had to conciously decide for practice over perfection. But over time patterns appear. As if behaviour explains my true priorities.

      But at the same time I do want to improve, learn, etc. So behaviour from the past and short term wants (disquised as needs) are not what I want to decide on.

      Humans are complicated! I’m glad I learned to meditate!!! 😂

      Like
    • dakinemaui And that would be the case for an audit trail report.  Because if priorities are shifting about as Powder Blue Pony  alludes, due to emotional reactions, that report can help identify and break a pattern that doesn't serve your long term interests, before it gets established

      Like
  • glynab said:
    What you like to remember is what I would like presented to me by the software.

     So set a goal. Easy-peasy and already included. 

    Like
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      Or go "old school" and rename your category "Groceries $225". Also already included. 😂

      Like 1
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      dakinemaui WordTenor I suppose I could just have one category and a notes section with my entire budget in it.  Every time I earn, spend or change I could just edit the notes.

      Like
    • glynab suppose you could. But why would you...?

      Also suppose I missed something.  😊 

      Like 1
      • dakinemaui
      • dakinemaui
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      glynab although I'm sure your comment was in jest, that's pretty much what YNAB is... except it also does the math for you. You know, cuz math is for school.

      Like 2
    • WordTenor The goal would just tell you by how much you've failed in a specific month.  Not where, if done through category moves, and if retrospectively, those were persistent bad decisions.

      Like
    • glynab Already doing this (notes) to backstop this gap. I might just post the notes I've accumulated in one category, just to illustrate how much of a kludge that approach is.

      Like
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      WhoMovedMyCheese Let me show you my notes:

      Like 2
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • 1 mth ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Huh, Superbone your notes look just like mine.  What a coincidence! 

      Like 2
    • WordTenor Me too - I was just going to ask if Superbone had copied off of me!

      You know that category a lot of people use when they're just starting YNAB, "Stuff I Forgot to Budget For"? I still use it but now it's called "Stuff I Didn't budget for Perfectly". I keep about $100 in there and just dip into it for a one off "oops". Just not worth it to me to have to do a lot of soul searching about whether buying my kids new underwear this month is a higher priority than that lovely bottle of (rather expensive) wine I bought. (although the answer is pretty obvious...)

      Like 2
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Periwinkle Flute I DO NOT appreciate the insinuation! 😉😄

      Like
    • Superbone Okay, okay... I admit it - it was I who copied off of you!😰

      Like 1
  • Just my two cents.

    An undo button on mobile devices would be awesome. Just this week I was having my son enter the cost of our takeout and he somehow un-budgeted that category. It took me quite some time (after we got home and ate, of course) to figure out what he had done. So one vote for a trail, but I truly believe that the undo button would suffice for that example. 

    I read Jesse's book in December 2018 and started my journey in January 2019. I can assure you that if there was a trail to see where I moved money to and from, I would not be in the financial position I am in today.  That, for me, is exactly why I failed at budgeting so many times. I would rob Peter to pay Paul and make arrows and sticky notes all over my budget and give up halfway through the month. As nolesrule  said, it is "a crutch" and I would still be hobbling today if it was an available feature.

    I will never have the understanding of YNAB that our top contributors have, but I have learned to trust them. I have silently argued with dakinemaui   for months that my priorities did not change, but in reality he was correct. I made a choice and obviously I wanted that thing more than something else that I had already allocated money to, but had not spent yet. So move the money and move on.

    Sometimes the choice is not mine, sometimes something important comes up and therefore my immediate priority has shifted from what it was on the first of the month to what it is today. I think this is the hard part; life happened, I can rob Peter, but I don't have to pay him back. I can either realize it is a one off, or I can understand that a category needs more funding. 

    Yesterday I had to pay an impound fee (long story) I believe it is a one off and I'll use my E-fund to pay for it and then replenish it as I can. If I did not have the e-fund I would have used money from several categories under the larger Garage category and again I would just carry on. At the most I would leave myself a note to add more to the auto insurance next month so next July I won't be short. But, I would not leave myself a note for the following: Fuel, Off Road, or Maintenance 

    All that being said, I really think that an audit feature would be a detriment to new users. As someone else said, I feel bad that they don't get the "live on last months income"  any more. That coupled with the ability to audit  where your priorities changed (and not understand that is what it is) would make YNAB just a tracking tool. It would not help people to gain control over their finances. 

    Like 5
      • glynab
      • glynab
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      B's Gambit It seems everyone has some sort of mental or notes method for keeping track of what happened.  No one would need their own method if YNAB had the ability to show that money moved between categories.

      It seems that YNAB has all sorts of data tracking capability.  You can even export it to Excel for extra analysis.  Not sure why knowing that money left a category and ended up somewhere else should be withheld and is the only thing that doesn't get tracked.  Why does anyone need any of the historical data?

      Like
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 1
      • Reported - view

      glynab 

      glynab said:
      It seems everyone has some sort of mental or notes method for keeping track of what happened.

      Nope, not everyone. I don't. It's just a crutch until you don't need it any longer.

      Like 1
    • glynab 

      glynab said:
      It seems everyone has some sort of mental or notes method for keeping track of what happened. 

       Did, perhaps. But not now that I trust YNAB.  It was a security blanket for me.

      Like 1
  • WhoMovedMyCheese said:
    The goal would just tell you by how much you've failed in a specific month.

    Here's where you show your ignorance of the method. It's not a punishing system. There is no failure. There are just choices based on your priorities. 0 sum. Zen.

    Like 1
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 1 mth ago
      • 6
      • Reported - view

      This is what traditional budgeters have the hardest time with. They're used to dealing with these hard defines. YNAB is a better way. Give it a chance to show you.

      Like 6
  • Apparently ynab has been listening and this is now on the "Up Next" page.

    Like
      • WordTenor
      • I have the honor to be your obedient servant
      • WordTenor
      • yesterday
      • 4
      • Reported - view

      Oh goody goody. I'm so looking forward to conversations with more people on FB and reddit which begin with "Stop paying your credit card every five minutes" continue to "If you've already set up a budget for February in October, you have six budgets you have to change when Netflix increases by nine cents" and then now will go on to "Make solid decisions on the front end instead of chasing your tail paying yourself back for the burrito you bought with your vacation savings." 

      Like 4
    • WordTenor You forgot "Your 10 savings accounts you set up to save for individual savings goals aren't necessary and it's just more work trying to keep those balances equal to the balances in your YNAB savings categories."

      Like 4
  • First comment on reddit: "Wow this is going to be painful for me to see, but it'll be helpful!" 

    I'm sure they could see my eyeroll all the way in Lehi. This is what people are going to learn from this feature. They are going to learn that adjusting their budgets is bad. Rule 3 has just become something not to do. Rule 4 already became something not to do. 

    I'm so glad I started on YNAB 4. I would've made great progress on some things on nYNAB but I would never have learned this beautiful mindset with which I now approach the entirety of my financial life. 

    Like 3
      • Superbone
      • YNAB convert since 2008
      • Superbone
      • 10 hrs ago
      • 4
      • Reported - view

      WordTenor Eventually, Rule One will be: Eh? Give Some Dollars a Job If and When You Feel Like It.

      Like 4
      • nolesrule
      • YNAB4 Evangelist
      • nolesrule
      • 3 hrs ago
      • 2
      • Reported - view

      Superbone  there was already a topic on FB today asking if anyone else likes to leave money in TBB.

      Like 2
  • I do not like the idea of an audit of budget changes because I don't think it gives the most important information. I believe what people need is the ability to compare the average spent with the average budgeted at the start of the month. If you budget exactly the same at the start of each month, then this number is easy to get: write in name of the category, put a goal... If you don't budget the same at the start of each month, then the information is not available.

    I think this metric is important because it tells you whether your aspirational goal (what you budget at the start of the month) is met or not. Then you can decide whether you need to up your aspirational goal or whether you need to watch your spending on this category. The only way to watch your spending is to check the amount available for that category before each and every spend and learn to tell "no, next month" to yourself and your family. 

    Currently, to get this metric you need to: 

    1. budget the same every month
    2. check each category one by one. No overview available.

    Knowing the flow of money (where the money comes from and where it goes) doesn't matter. But the end result matters.

    Like
  • I wrote a draft response to Todd a month ago. I guess I'll post it unpolished and unfinished when I get to my computer. 

    I was thinking the same thing others have said here about making the rules... Not rules.

    Like
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